Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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the pieces never fit together

At times they appear to be outright twisting the facts in order to conjure up evidence against Amanda and Raffaele out of nowhere. For example in the footprint case I just mentioned they simply ignore Rudy's statement that he went from the room where Meredith had been murdered to the bathroom and back, and have Rudy running straight out the front door as soon as he sees Meredith injured. This appears to be nothing more than a device to allow them to claim that the bathmat print and all the luminol prints must therefore by elimination all have been made by Raffaele and Amanda cavorting about with blood on their feet.
Kevin_Lowe,

Good point. Also, Rudi's going out the front door and Amanda's and Raffaele's staying behind is difficult to square with the witness who said she heard multiple people running right after the scream. It has always been hard for me to see a consistent thread running through the prosecution's story.
 
I'm surprised they won't bother reviewing the other contentious evidence like the bathmat and hard drive activity.

I did an earlier post about the bathmat being useless as a piece of evidence because it fails to indicate one individual over another. But when I thought about it afterwards, independent testing would still offer a further insight into the framing methods of the Perugian police force, and although we are growing used to their scrutiny it's still always good for a laugh.

On the subject of humour...

In the quoted article Newsweek refers to a statement they attribute to the DEFENSE attorneys. Anyone with any understanding of the case would realize the statement was from Maresca.
The statement was as follows: "The Kercher family is very worried over this inquisitorial atmosphere around the serious job done during the investigation."

What that would mean is the Maresca will be annoyed that the court crowd would be laughing at Steffi's collection techniques

Back to framing...

I agree with the earlier posts that Steff is the guiding hand behind most of the framing from the cops....

and deserves a bit of jail-time herself, to find out what it's really llike...
 
Maresca and the forensics

The Kercher family are 100% responsible for the words and actions of their lawyer, who is acting as their agent. I consider him to be a hateful and dishonest presence in this proceeding.
Diocletus,

It was Maresca who said that Italy was teaching the world and the U.S. how to do forensics, and perhaps the Kerchers genuinely believed him. He owes them (especially) an honest reevaluation. They bear some responsibility for his actions, but they are also victims of his unfair and unfounded assessment.
 
Look up "irony" and this is what you might see...

I haven't noticed any particular trend of pro-guilt believers coming from the UK or any other country. Similarly, I see no preponderance of Americans arguing for innocence either (with the exception of Seattleites, who are disproportionately represented and tend to be pro-innocence. But this shouldn't be too surprising...
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I live in Seattle and this is probably OT, but so dripping with irony, I just have to share.

Some of you may already know this, but many folks here in Seattle (don't know who or why off hand) decided (just before or around the time this Amanda Knox affair began) that Perugia was our "sister" city in Italy.

I kid you not, and they were going to name a park here in Seattle to commemorate it, the "Perugia Park" or some such name, but that was thrown under the bus not too long ago for obvious reasons.

I can't post links just yet so if you don't believe me just google, Seattle+"sister city"+Perugia, and you can see for yourself,

Dave

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It was Maresca who said that Italy was teaching the world and the U.S. how to do forensics, and perhaps the Kerchers genuinely believed him. He owes them (especially) an honest reevaluation. They bear some responsibility for his actions, but they are also victims of his unfair and unfounded assessment.


Well said halides. I don't see that ever coming from Maresca. I hope the Kerchers will find the truth, but don't know how they will find it with roadblocks such as Maresca in the way.
 
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free rein

I see no evidence of hatred towards Guede, Raffaele or Amanda.
CoulsdonUK,

Mr. Kercher wrote, "Last week, Knox’s parents were given star billing on the ITV breakfast show Daybreak, where they had free rein to profess their conviction that their daughter is not guilty." Use of the phrase "star billing" leads me to believe that he feels contempt for Amanda's family. Does Mr. Kercher object to their right of free speech? That would put him in conflict with your views, as I understand them.
 
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Oh My Gawd!!!

I can't post links just yet so if you don't believe me just google, Seattle+"sister city"+Perugia, and you can see for yourself
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Just went and googled it mysef and this is a quote from an archived article (from November 8, 2007) from a local TV station:

" ...A police report says Knox said she heard Kercher’s screams but was too drunk to respond and fell asleep... "

Here's the best link I can give you:

blogs.king5.com/ archives/ 2007/ 11/ perugia_murder.html

Police report? WTF?

Sorry, but this is the kind of cr*p we had to put up with at the time, even here in Seatte,

Dave

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but the moment has passed

Some of you may already know this, but many folks here in Seattle (don't know who or why off hand) decided (just before or around the time this Amanda Knox affair began) that Perugia was our "sister" city in Italy.

I kid you not, and they were going to name a park here in Seattle to commemorate it, the "Perugia Park" or some such name, but that was thrown under the bus not too long ago for obvious reasons.
AmyStrange,

Maybe Seattle should have named a light rail line after Perugia.
 
I noticed in the lasted Daily Mail comments a great deal of negative comments. Here the article directly says - The cops are no good at their job - and the comments seem to ignore that and talk about political pressure and technicalities. I was very disappointed in these comments.

[snip]

Such completely different types of comments! The Daily Mail comments often talk about Amanda's behavior, Americans pulling politics, technicalities. They hardly mention the topic of the article. The il Giornale comments seem to accept innocence and are blaming the authorities.

If you're only reading comments from the tabloid press you're obviously going to get a distorted picture of British opinion. Their readers will be disproportionately skewed towards vengefulness and idiocy on just about any topic. Not to mention it is the Daily Fail and other British red top tabloids which are largely responsible for all the guilter sensationalism that has characterized this story from the beginning. Though they have a large readership in the UK, you should keep in mind that there are just as many Britons who vehemently despise them, to the point of going outside if one of these rags should claim the sky is blue and checking for themselves.

I don't get the impression that Il Giornale is nearly half as bad as the Daily Fail. Is it considered a tabloid? There's also the valid consideration that Italians may well be more skeptical of their own police and justice system than uninformed foreigners.
 
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hmmm...

Back to framing...

I agree with the earlier posts that Steff is the guiding hand behind most of the framing from the cops....

and deserves a bit of jail-time herself, to find out what it's really llike...
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BTW, just where exactly was Steffi while Meredith was being murdered? I'm just wondering just how much of Steffi's DNA was in that room...

Now wouldn't THAT be ironic?

(Just kidding Steffi. Hehehe)

Dave

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I don't base this on people from JREF, IIP, PMF, TJMK. All of these sites have informed posters. I am thinking more of the less informed commenters on articles and on Facebook pages. There are definitely people who believe in guilt and innocence from the UK, US and IT.

I don't really pay attention to Facebook outside of a few friends, so I can't comment on that.

What I see in CoulsdonUK is a strand of thinking from the UK that I find baffling. It's like they would be betraying Meredith, her family and the Queen herself by supporting Amanda Knox. I don't understand the view. I can not comprehend it completely. Amanda after all is human first; shouldn't there be concern that the verdict is correct on that grounds. It seems with this strand of thought Amanda and Raffaele do not matter. That only Meredith and her family are important. I understand that is where their very interest in the case comes from, but why the resistance to the truth? How will it honor Meredith or help her family to have the wrong people locked in the can?

This view is hardly unique to the UK, though. Hasn't Alt+F4 been harping on this notion constantly throughout the thread? Some people, for whatever reason, seem to think it's absolutely necessary for every pro-innocence person to reiterate again and again that Meredith is the "true victim" before the discussion can go on about whether Amanda and Raffaele might not also be victims, too, albeit lesser victims. To them, even considering that these two people might be innocent is an insult to Meredith unless you couch it terms of how horrible this all must be for her family, and how insensitive it is to question whether her family might be wrong. Frankly, I find it bizarre, and I tend to think it's more of a ploy to derail the discussion than anything else.

Draca said:
In the same line is the posts about the dignified Kercher family vs. those loud Americans daring to defend their guilty daughter on UK T.V.

Here is a comment on the difference from a UK poster:
"I think there are a number of reasons why the reaction in Britain has been different from in the USA. (1) The victim was British. (2) The British tabloids are probably the most viscious and unprincipled in the world and they printed lies and misinformation on an industrial scale. (3) People assume that Italy is a Western country with a competent judicial system (I did - I was very wrong). (4) We don't have a dog in the fight. None of the alleged perpetrators was British. (5) The BBC has been lamentable and we usually expect it to be operating on a higher level then the press."

I agree with all of these points with the exception of (3), which I would qualify with the following: Italy is certainly not alone among Western countries in having a very flawed judicial system. We shouldn't pretend this can only happen in Italy. It happens in the UK, it happens in the US. In fact, many of the miscarriages of justice which have occurred in the US strike me as worse than this one. The Norfolk Four and West Memphis Three come to mind.
 
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Please!!!

AmyStrange,

Maybe Seattle should have named a light rail line after Perugia.

Don't give anyone in our city any bright ideas. We already have a monorail that (almost) doesn't go anywhere except to the "Seattle Center" (a mile or two) and then back into town.

Hmmm, maybe we should rename that the "Steffi" line.

Sorry, me and my roommate just couldn't stop giggling over THAT one. I just had to share. Hehehe,

Dave

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false statements

I agree with all of these points with the exception of (3), which I would qualify with the following: Italy is certainly not alone among Western countries in having a very flawed judicial system. We shouldn't pretend this can only happen in Italy. It happens in the UK, it happens in the US. In fact, many of the miscarriages of justice which have occurred in the US strike me as worse than this one. The Norfolk Four and West Memphis Three come to mind.
Slayhamlet,

What links the Knox/Sollecito case with the Norfolk Four and the West Memphis Three is that false statements by those who were eventually convicted played a role in all three cases. Many people have a hard time believing that the police elicit false statements by the way in which they interrogate suspects, and it is perhaps even harder to accept that some people believe their own false statements. That is a major problem for any criminal justice system. One has only to Google "Japan false confessions" to pull up some interesting articles, such as this one from the BBC, or this one from The Economist.

BTW, I do not always see a bright line that differentiates a false confession from a false accusation. In at least some of the confessions with which I am familiar, the person minimizes his or her own culpability while blaming someone else.
 
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Slayhamlet,

What links the Knox/Sollecito case with the Norfolk Four and the West Memphis Three is that false statements by those who were eventually convicted played a role in all three cases. Many people have a hard time believing that the police elicit false statements by the way in which they interrogate suspects, and it is perhaps even harder to accept that some people believe their own false statements. That is a major problem for any criminal justice system.

Oh yes, I agree completely. It was the Norfolk Four case that got me interested in false confessions in the first place. It's a fascinating and disturbingly counter-intuitive phenomenon.

One has only to Google "Japan false confessions" to pull up some interesting articles, such as this one from the BBC.

I have heard about this before. It's been said that the Japanese take pride in their police and justice system for convicting so many of the accused, a number which is way out of proportion to what we see in other democracies. Apparently they think it means the police are just very good at what they do. To me it suggests that many innocent Japanese might be in jail for crimes they didn't commit, which is surprising when you consider how low their crime rate is. It's also interesting that Japan has the death penalty.

BTW, I do not always see a bright line that differentiates a false confession from a false accusation. In at least some of the confessions with which I am familiar, the person minimizes his or her own culpability while blaming someone else.

Neither do I. Obviously both false confessions and false accusations, and really any false information elicited by the police from suspects through coercion and manipulation, are aspects of the same phenomenon. Derek Tice made several false accusations in addition to his "confession".
 
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Just went and googled it mysef and this is a quote from an archived article (from November 8, 2007) from a local TV station:

" ...A police report says Knox said she heard Kercher’s screams but was too drunk to respond and fell asleep... "
Here's the best link I can give you:

blogs.king5.com/ archives/ 2007/ 11/ perugia_murder.html

Police report? WTF?

Sorry, but this is the kind of cr*p we had to put up with at the time, even here in Seatte,

Dave

That was probably someone trying to make sense of this which are Amanda Knox's two 'confessions.' As you can see, at the end of one of them she doesn't actually 'witness' the murder:

I cannot remember how long they stayed together in the room but I can only say that at a certain point I heard Meredith screaming and as I was scared I plugged up my hears. Then I do not remember anything, I am very confused. I do not remember if Meredith was screaming and if I heard some thuds too because I was upset, but I imagined what could have happened.

It's hard to make sense of what she supposedly 'witnessed' or 'confessed' to--or that cops would ever take it seriously enough to arrest all three and then parade around town and announce 'cased closed.'
 
I agree with all of these points with the exception of (3), which I would qualify with the following: Italy is certainly not alone among Western countries in having a very flawed judicial system. We shouldn't pretend this can only happen in Italy. It happens in the UK, it happens in the US. In fact, many of the miscarriages of justice which have occurred in the US strike me as worse than this one. The Norfolk Four and West Memphis Three come to mind.


I agree with both of you! I would not have thought there were so many problems in the Italian justice system before this case. There is a trust in authority that is natural. Most people would assume they did a competent job and got the verdit correct. That's not true and it turns out Italy has huge judicial system problems. So, in that way I agree with point 3.

Just today from Frank Sfarzo "cops were sent by the Procura of Perugia, and ordered Conti and Vecchiotti to hand over the DVD containing the presentation with which yesterday the two scientists had explained their report in court." The scientists called Hellmann and he agrees to give a copy of the DVD to the prosecution. This is called witness intimidation! Really, sending the Flying Thug Squad to intimidate court appointed experts?! Probably Mignini sent them.

I also agree with you that Italy is far from alone. I agree the US is in reality a large offender. Although with different problems than Italy has.
 
Thank you Kaosium for sharing

It's hard to make sense of what she supposedly 'witnessed' or 'confessed' to--or that cops would ever take it seriously enough to arrest all three and then parade around town and announce 'cased closed.'
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the only way those "confessions" make sense (to me anyway) is if what she said the police did to her (to get the confession) is true. And, the fact that
they almost immediately went out and arrested Patrick w/o any kind of investigation, is circumstantial evidence proving (again, to me anyway) the police told her she had to implicate Patrick or she wouldn't be leaving that room until she did.

And the whole "spontaneously" thing is just off the wall. Who says things like that in "real" life anyway? The way I understand it (and this kind of gives added credence to the idea that the police orchestrated her confession), spontaneous declarations (confessions) can be used (in Italy) against "witnesses" in court and the police can still pretend the "witness" wasn't a "suspect" and thus didn't have to be recorded as required by italian law... or some such nonsense.

Anyway, sorry for bringing up stuff that has probably already been discussed here ad nauseam,

Dave

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Add to the "drunken confessions" the fact they were written in Italian (a language AK barely knew on 6 Nov 2007. Picture the movie My Cousin Vinny only in Italian... "I killed the clerk?'" "I KILLED THE CLERK?" Yes Seattle is sister city to Perugia but they are trying to get that changed now.

The leader of the hate group PMF is Seattle resident Peggy Ganog...go figure. Maybe the Knox dog peed on her roses...who knows.

The Perugia police shook down the independent experts today by sending two squads to Rome at the behest of the prosecutors office...and to think this same department cant afford to tape interrogations...
All this to collect a DVD that was available in the Perugia court house. Can anyone say INTIMADATION...or would that be witness tampering? I get those two confused.

Maresca acts like a hyena...kind of looks like one too. It was Maresca and Comodi that Hellmann scolded to shut up on Monday during independent expert witness time.

Ahhhh Massei.... this report will be used in law schools forever more. Its all the things Kevin said plus he left out the parts where Massei asks the reader to imagine or where he actually uses the words in theory... and he somehow tries to explain taking a huge knife to an unpremeditated murder. It is a bastardization of anything decent in a system of law...It is law lesssss.....
 
Diocletus,

It was Maresca who said that Italy was teaching the world and the U.S. how to do forensics, and perhaps the Kerchers genuinely believed him. He owes them (especially) an honest reevaluation. They bear some responsibility for his actions, but they are also victims of his unfair and unfounded assessment.

The Kerchers were betrayed once by the murderer, then betrayed again and again by their lawyer, the prosecutors and the court. Someday they will realize that, and it might not be too difficult for them to transfer their rage from one set of targets to another. However, they will never be financially compensated for the murder, and it is doubtful they will be financially compensated for the professional misconduct that essentially will ruin a large part of their lives, unless they want to hire another lawyer and then settle for a nominal award as Patrick Lumumba did.
 
What I see in CoulsdonUK is a strand of thinking from the UK that I find baffling. It's like they would be betraying Meredith, her family and the Queen herself by supporting Amanda Knox. I don't understand the view. I can not comprehend it completely. Amanda after all is human first; shouldn't there be concern that the verdict is correct on that grounds. It seems with this strand of thought Amanda and Raffaele do not matter. That only Meredith and her family are important.


I alluded to that earlier, because it's something I see a lot. It's particularly prevalent where there has been a successful appeal against a conviction, even where the original conviction has been a blatant miscarriage of justice. How dare anyone acquit this person, my child's memory has been sullied and s/he has been denied justice, and so on.

I don't think I've ever seen a reaction from the victim's family which has said, now we realise that the accused person didn't do it, our sympathies are also with them and their family for their ordeal, and we hope the case can be re-opened and the real culprit apprehended as soon as possible. I don't think I even heard that after the original acquittals in the Damilola Taylor case, even though that is exactly what subsequently happened.

I'm afraid I'm often reduced to impotent shouting at the television to the effect that what bloody good do you think it's going to do your son/daughter to bang up the wrong person for the murder??

This view is hardly unique to the UK, though. Hasn't Alt+F4 been harping on this notion constantly throughout the thread?


I have to agree, although it's something I see a lot, it hadn't occurred to me it was a peculiarly British reaction.

Some people, for whatever reason, seem to think it's absolutely necessary for every pro-innocence person to reiterate again and again that Meredith is the "true victim" before the discussion can go on about whether Amanda and Raffaele might not also be victims, too, albeit lesser victims. To them, even considering that these two people might be innocent is an insult to Meredith unless you couch it terms of how horrible this all must be for her family, and how insensitive it is to question whether her family might be wrong. Frankly, I find it bizarre, and I tend to think it's more of a ploy to derail the discussion than anything else.


I see that a lot in the posts at PMF. Well, of course Meredith was the innocent victim of a particularly brutal and harrowing murder, and the thought of that must haunt her parents every day of their lives. It pretty much goes without saying, though it doesn't hurt to say it from time to time.

But what the hell does that have to do with justifying attempts to pin a spurious conviction on a couple of other innocent kids, no matter how stupidly they behaved in the days following the murder?

Rolfe.
 
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