Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I remember him making a big deal about why wasn't I taking a position on the case, maybe a year ago. Something about my being a respected poster, and if I wasn't saying anything, something was "terribly wrong". He PMed me, I think, urging me to weigh in, and I told him I had no idea about the specifics of the case and was frying other fish anyway. He seemed to think I would support guilt and that if I wasn't, then I'd been got at or something.

So when I finally did take an interest, and didn't take his side, now I'm the "resident veterinarian" whose patients have four stomachs so what do I know, I'm just a cow-doctor with straw coming out my ears.

It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

Rolfe.

This seems to be a standard MO. Until someone speaks out they all assume that that person is going to see their light, and come to the same conclusion they have. When the person does speak out and disagrees with them, they switch tacks of "They'll agree with us" to "They must have been paid off or are stupid." The idea that the experts fail to agree with them because they are actually wrong never seems to cross their minds, it has to be that the experts are wrong.
 
WSH piece, quoting Chris Mellas:

http://www.westseattleherald.com/2011/07/24/news/update-2-courtroom-was-chuckling-court-appointed-

Note that Mellas is quoted as saying that Stefanoni and Comodi were "giggling, trying to laugh it off", at the beginning of the Conti/Vecchiotti presentation. This is not the gasps and laughter that were reported as having taken place later on in the presentation - by which time Stefanoni and Comodi were definitely not laughing any more (in fact, by this time Comodi was shouting at the DNA experts - causing Hellmann to tell her to shut up....)

To be clear, the gasps and laughter were seemingly in response to a particular device employed by Conti/Vecchiotti: they described in detail the proper (and internationally-accepted) protocols for collecting evidence at a crime scene, then immediately followed that with the video of the bra clasp collection - which illustrated that the "crack" forensics team at the cottage had broken pretty much every rule that Conti/Vecchiotti had just described. The juxtaposition of a) the correct way to do it against b) the "crack" Perugia forensics team's way of doing it, was what precipitated the gasps/laughter.
 
You click "White PMF" either "#1" or "#2" in the options bar at the top of the page - but beware! The PMF.net options currently route you to PMF.org (!) HumanityBlues's example comes from .net.

You can get the other colour schemes on PMF.net by adding the argument "&style=1" or "&style=6" to the URL.


Yeah, I know. I wouldn't be reading it otherwise. I just got a nasty shock to the optic nerve seeing the native layout posted here.

Rolfe.
 
Yeah, I thought it was something like that. It's childish.

It's totally bizarre. What's in it for them, anyway? I find miscarriages of justice interesting, but I don't spend a lot of time foaming at the mouth against people I think were rightly convicted.

Rolfe.


I think it's some sort of "mission for justice" motivation, coupled with an inability to realise (or admit) that they are wrong.

It's interesting that the groundwork is now being laid down for the following post-acquittal position: "Knox and Sollecito are guilty as hell, but they lucked out because errors were made during the investigation. The Kercher family now have to go through the additional agony of seeing two of their daughter's killers go free. But the small compensatory factor is that everybody will always know that they are vicious killers."

It's also interesting that certain sections of the media have also implied something similar in their latest reporting (e.g. "Killer Knox may go free thanks to bungled DNA tests" etc). To my mind, this is the single biggest problem that Knox/Sollecito will face if Hellmann's court acquits them. It's a totally erroneous and ignorant argument, of course, but I think we'll hear it quite a bit from now on.
 
Yeah, I know. I wouldn't be reading it otherwise. I just got a nasty shock to the optic nerve seeing the native layout posted here.

Of course, this conversation has already happened. I thought it was worth adding that .net routes you to .org if you click the option, though - and the way of getting round that for anyone who's interested.
 
Only one seems to be Lionking who has apparently ondicated that he'll accept the jury's verdict.



Probably more likely that they were paid off by the huge PR machine that is FOA.



There are already claims that they were paid-off by FOA, or that they are just ivory tower intellectuals who have no experience in the real world, and that the police experts were far more versed in what should and shouldn't be done at a crime scene and so they'll be shredded on cross as their inexperience and lack of understanding of the case is brought forward.
Thank you so much for the update. I can't recall an established FoA group like the Justice for MK group when I was posting here more regularly. I'll have to check that out.
 
Ever since his motivations report was published (courtesy of PMF), it's been glaringly obvious that there was some desperately bad reasoning made in Massei's court, coupled with some equally bad judicial rulings. I wasn't following this case at the time of the first trial, but it didn't take me long after I started following it (in March 2010 - before I'd even known the Massei Report was available) for me to work out the numerous significant flaws in the guilty verdicts.


I haven't read it, but I have read the Opinion of the Court on the Megrahi/Fhimah trial at Camp Zeist. I think I know what you mean. You read it, and you think, how can any human being with even average intellectual capacity reason like that? Never mind three of them.

The over-riding tenor of that lot was a single-minded determination to convict, much as you describe for the Massei document. If it was even faintly possible that an interpretation could be put on the evidence that supported guilt, that interpretation was chosen, no matter how fanciful. At the same time, far more probable and reasonable explanations which supported innocence were rejected with - well, that hasn't been proven.

The crowning glory was the circular reasoning. Megrahi was said to bear some resemblance to a man who bought certain clothes, if you ignored a heap of stuff about height, age, build, skin colour and the day the purchase happened. This from a witness who had seen the purchaser once, for about half an hour, over two years previously (for a bad photo) and then over ten years previously (for the ID parade). The judges solemnly declared that the witness's uncertainty was a positive sign, because it showed he was really trying to be fair - they actually said that sometimes a witness who wasn't sure was a more reliable identification than one who was sure. So they elevated this into "beyond reasonable doubt" that Megrahi had bought those clothes - because he was at the airport when the bomb was smuggled on to the plane, and that was surely no coincidence.

But then, when addressing the problem that there was absolutely no evidence that the bomb had ever been anywhere near that particular plane, and in fact this was investigated so minutely that it pretty much added up to evidence of absence, they did the opposite. They took the one single tenuous piece of evidence that might have pointed to an unaccompanied item on that plane (if only that hadn't been disproved at the other end), but which could well have had other explanations, and decided that this was indeed evidence the bomb was on that plane - because the man who had bought the clothes was at the airport at the time that flight left, and that was surely no coincidence!

They then looked straight at the very compelling evidence that the bomb had been introduced somewhere else entirely, constructed their very own fairy-story to hand-wave away that solid eyewitness evidence, and decided that was the coincidence.

Guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Life imprisonment.

Why did they do this? I just totally don't begin to get it. And I don't suppose anyone is going to hold three Lords to account for that sacrificium intellectuale as it has been termed. But I'd dearly love to know why they did it.

So, since I probably won't wade my way through the whole Massei report, can you summarise the flaws as you see them, in roughly the same way?

Rolfe.
 
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I respect your approach.

When I look at the issue, I see differences, too.

As to motivation, the Kerchers are motivated by vengence--to see someone punished who they think has done their daughter wrong. That's a pure motivation. The guilters, at least the most evident of them, are motivated by hate. That's dirty.

Both are wrong about the case.

As to the magnitude of harm they have caused, I think we have to say that the Kerchers through Maresca did some damage (that we can't quantify). The guilters are a bunch of people on the internet who might have contributed some negative PR, but probably had less of an effect on the wrongful imprisonment of the defendants.

So, we get this:

Kerchers = Pure motive, but wrong. Hurt innocent people.

Guilters = Hateful and wrong. But less likely to have accomplished actual harm.

It's an interesting comparison in terms of intent and magntitude of harm.
John Kercher has been the public voice for his daughter and family, I do not agree he has been hateful in his comments or indeed particularly verbose having penned half a dozen articles in UK newspapers since Meredith’s murder, although yes he believes Raffaele and Amanda along with Guede are culpable in the murder of his daughter in lieu of an actual verdict from the current appeal.

In all fairness I believe the Kercher, Knox\Mellas and Sollecito’s families have equal rights to voice their respective opinions about Meredith’s murder and the ongoing legal process.
 
It's interesting that the groundwork is now being laid down for the following post-acquittal position: "Knox and Sollecito are guilty as hell, but they lucked out because errors were made during the investigation. The Kercher family now have to go through the additional agony of seeing two of their daughter's killers go free. But the small compensatory factor is that everybody will always know that they are vicious killers."

It's also interesting that certain sections of the media have also implied something similar in their latest reporting (e.g. "Killer Knox may go free thanks to bungled DNA tests" etc). To my mind, this is the single biggest problem that Knox/Sollecito will face if Hellmann's court acquits them. It's a totally erroneous and ignorant argument, of course, but I think we'll hear it quite a bit from now on.


It probably won't be as bad as that. Most people aren't following the case, or are following it only half-heartedly. Most people will have forgotten all about it in a year. And people who actually know them probably don't believe them capable of such a thing anyway.

The big question is, I suppose, whether it's best to let sleeping dogs lie as soon as possible, or whether to take the opportunity to get their side across by publishing books.

Amanda seems to have an extraordinarily bad case of foot-in-mouth disease, so she'd probably be best to shut up about it. Probably won't, though.

Rolfe.
 
John Kercher has been the public voice for his daughter and family, I do not agree he has been hateful in his comments or indeed particularly verbose having penned half a dozen articles in UK newspapers since Meredith’s murder, although yes he believes Raffaele and Amanda along with Guede are culpable in the murder of his daughter in lieu of an actual verdict from the current appeal.

In all fairness I believe the Kercher, Knox\Mellas and Sollecito’s families have equal rights to voice their respective opinions about Meredith’s murder and the ongoing legal process.


I think the really sad outcome that is actually fairly likely is that Knox and Sollecito are acquitted, and he refuses to accept that verdict. That can be extraordinarily destructive.

Rolfe.
 
I think the really sad outcome that is actually fairly likely is that Knox and Sollecito are acquitted, and he refuses to accept that verdict. That can be extraordinarily destructive.

Rolfe.
Really more destructive than the senseless brutal murder of their daughter or sister who did nothing to warrant her murder, I could be wrong but I really don’t think so. The Kercher family have been handed a life sentence the verdict of this appeal will change nothing for them; in my opinion.

I have posted this before; I commend the Kercher family’s behaviour since Meredith's murder.
 
Nothing can change the fact of the murder, which was diabolical. Nothing can make that better. However, knowledge that the murderer has been caught and convicted and is serving a prison sentence can go a long way to help families achieve closure.

Belief that the murderer or murderers have escaped punishment and have been unreasonably acquitted can do the opposite - keep wounds fresh and unhealing. I think it would be very sad if that were to be the outcome in this case. It's not rational to continue to believe in that extraordinarily unlikely story of the murderous threesome who didn't even know each other, if a court has rejected it. But people who are mourning the brutal murder of their daughter do not always think rationally.

We see it here quite often - even people who have been quite conclusively proved innocent are lambasted on the steps of the court by distraught families railing against their loved one being "denied justice". It's destructive and pernicious, but I don't see any obvious way out.

Horror about the appalling crime should not be allowed to become hatred for someone who had nothing to do with the crime. But that doesn't stop it happening with depressing regularity.

Rolfe.
 
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Guilters think that if Amanda gets out of jail, she will go about life as if nothing ever happened to her.

This has been a tremendously traumatic four years for Amanda and Raffaele! The trauma all the guilters have collectively had over their entire lifetimes doesn't come close! Jail isn't a picnic! The court hasn't been R & R!

Is Amanda going into depression after being out for awhile?
Will future life experiences mean as much?

Her goals have all been brushed aside, all but forgotten and replaced with the goal of winning in court.

Will Amanda ever trust the court or police again? I doubt it.

Will Amanda hate the world? Perhaps, and justifiably so.

Will Amanda want to continue her education? I hope so.

Amanda and Raffaele will need expensive therapy, but there is no money left for that - unless they get some big TV and book deals. There probably will be some money.

And the four years lost for Amanda, Raffaele and their families. Will that ever be recovered? Unlikely.

In ten years, they may have forgotten this dreadful experience and move on.

I hope so.
 
Guilters think that Amanda is a serial sex killer at the beginning of her career, who will undoubtedly kill again if she is allowed to go free.

Hey, don't shoot the messenger!

Rolfe.
 
They are also hinting that the FOA/Defense are colluding with the experts. Here is one such example. Fair use:
[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/ZG4pe.png[/qimg]

I hate to bring this up again, but this is just too hilarious. A poster by the name of Stint7 who is constantly giving updates about JREF on PMF.net has now referenced my above post saying that I ridicule as "hilarious" the "idea that an idiot from PMF could possibly believe that the FOA interacted with the Knox/Sollecito Defense team."

This is what I said: "They are also hinting that the FOA/Defense are colluding with the experts.".... as in the *independent experts* Then he goes off on a diatribe about different "FOA"s helping the defense (which would be totally unnecessary had he actually read what I wrote). He has also accused the rest of you "groupies" as piling in.

Maybe because the "groupies" actually realize what was being said and that Stint7 can't read too well. I sure wish he'd come here and voice his displeasure.

So funny.

ETA: The reason the "diatribe" is so funny is because I said nothing about the FOA helping the defense. Hence, the rest of his "diatribe" was completely irrelevant to the original point he was making that was based on a bungled reading in the first place!
 
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It probably won't be as bad as that. Most people aren't following the case, or are following it only half-heartedly. Most people will have forgotten all about it in a year. And people who actually know them probably don't believe them capable of such a thing anyway.

The big question is, I suppose, whether it's best to let sleeping dogs lie as soon as possible, or whether to take the opportunity to get their side across by publishing books.

Amanda seems to have an extraordinarily bad case of foot-in-mouth disease, so she'd probably be best to shut up about it. Probably won't, though.

Rolfe.
I see no evidence of hatred towards Guede, Raffaele or Amanda.

I do not recall any words or behaviour from the Kercher family after the first trial or since that supports this view of hatred. I have said John Kercher wrote prior to the start of the appeal of Raffaele and Amanda’s culpability, I do not what his current opinion might be, although I doubt that it will have changed. However, it is wholly possible for Meredith’s family to believe in culpability, this is not hatred of Guede, Raffaele or Amanda.

As for what may or may not happen at the end of this appeal, let’s wait and see.
 
John Kercher has been the public voice for his daughter and family, I do not agree he has been hateful in his comments or indeed particularly verbose having penned half a dozen articles in UK newspapers since Meredith’s murder, although yes he believes Raffaele and Amanda along with Guede are culpable in the murder of his daughter in lieu of an actual verdict from the current appeal.

In all fairness I believe the Kercher, Knox\Mellas and Sollecito’s families have equal rights to voice their respective opinions about Meredith’s murder and the ongoing legal process.


Please do not mischaracterize what I said. My post does not say that John Kercher was hateful. To the contrary, it says he acted from pure motive. I did say that many guilters (you know who they are) are hateful, but I clearly distinguished them from John Kercher.

Further, no one said that he didn't have a "right" to voice his opinion (in the sense of free speech and all that). But I did say that he is wrong. He has a right to speak his mind, even if it's wrong, but at the end of the day, he's still wrong. Unfortunately, his actions have contributed to the harming of two innocent, young people. And for this reason, I don't think that he will ever allow himself to believe in innocence.
 
I see no evidence of hatred towards Guede, Raffaele or Amanda.

I do not recall any words or behaviour from the Kercher family after the first trial or since that supports this view of hatred. I have said John Kercher wrote prior to the start of the appeal of Raffaele and Amanda’s culpability, I do not what his current opinion might be, although I doubt that it will have changed. However, it is wholly possible for Meredith’s family to believe in culpability, this is not hatred of Guede, Raffaele or Amanda.

As for what may or may not happen at the end of this appeal, let’s wait and see.


The Kercher family are 100% responsible for the words and actions of their lawyer, who is acting as their agent. I consider him to be a hateful and dishonest presence in this proceeding.
 
It is a worrying for me how some people on either side of this case refer to each other, I wonder if some would be happier if those who believe in guilt were forced to were capital letter G on their clothing whilst those who believe in innocence were identified with an I, would that make them happy?
 
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