Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[christianahannah]

Any predictions out there?

I am not good at predicting and prefer to observe. And I think there will be much observing to do during the next three hearings.

I predicted way back in December that first Curatolo and then Stefi would be thrown under the bus. I am sticking with that one.

That you did Rose and I believe you predicted such on Frank's blog (which I miss - yes I know there is a new and improved version, however I prefer the old one).

 

[HumanityBlues]

I think the fact that Conti and one of the judges are old friends is pretty significant. Probably a conflict of interest, but who cares at this point. It's over.

 

[christianahannah]

I think the fact that Conti and one of the judges are old friends is pretty significant. Probably a conflict of interest, but who cares at this point. It's over.

I don't see a conflict of interest (after all, friends are usually made among those in one's profession). I think most involved in the profession of law can put aside their conflicts in the interest of justice.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I predicted Stefanoni would fight back hard. These people are crazy.

 

[HumanityBlues]

I don't see a conflict of interest (after all, friends are usually made among those in one's profession). I think most involved in the profession of law can put aside their conflicts in the interest of justice.

Either way, fine by me. Stefanoni has basically said she is going to attack their credentials. Good luck to her.

They aren't in the *same* profession though.

 

[Mary_H]

Halides,

There is no accounting for credible scenarios. The state presented a narrative that gave judges reason to find guilt at the first trial. The two defendants have what- 5, 6, 7 or more versions of a quiet night watching movies.

I find it truly amazing Sollecito would say to investigators his first version of that night was rubbish because Knox told him to say it.

You do not lie in a murder investigation and then expect to get away with it.

The evidence, as presented, points to guilt. The best evidence comes from the defendants themselves.

Unfortunately, the evidence you refer to is not documented; it's all hearsay, except for the Italian statements Amanda signed, which were not written by her and turned out to contain mostly false information.

There are no records of 5, 6 or 7 versions of a quiet night watching movies. We don't even know for sure whether, before the interrogations, the police asked Amanda and Raffaele anything about their activities the night of the murder. There is no record of what Raffaele said to the police; there is only a newspaper report, provided to the reporter by the police.

If only the police had taped those interrogations......

Apparently, a person can lie in a murder investigation and get away with it -- Rudy Guede did. In his case, we actually do have documentation of his changing stories. It's a mystery why the word of a man with so little credibility was accepted and used to indict the two other defendants. It suggests that what is at issue is not credibility, but the will of the court.

 

[christianahannah]

Either way, fine by me. Stefanoni has basically said she is going to attack their credentials. Good luck to her.

If she goes that way I do not think it will be effective. It is better to argue from a point of what was done correctly and what proper protocols were followed, if one can do so.

Stefanoni and Vechiotti have worked together prior to this case. It would be interesting to know more about their professional relationship.

 

[christianahannah]

Either way, fine by me. Stefanoni has basically said she is going to attack their credentials. Good luck to her.

They aren't in the *same* profession though.

Don't go changing on me.

While not in the *same* profession their choice of profession coincide as is the case now.

 

[HumanityBlues]

If she goes that way I do not think it will be effective. It is better to argue from a point of what was done correctly and what proper protocols were followed, if one can do so.

Stefanoni and Vechiotti have worked together prior to this case. It would be interesting to know more about their professional relationship.

I think we'll find out more about that tomorrow for sure.

 

[theRealBob]

Just a further quick note on my dropping into PMF. My earlier posts on it here were slightly misleading. When I say I've been banned again and again, and again and again, and again...
I've really only dropped in about 3 times in a year and a half and been banned for mild innocence posts each occasion. Also I can't help thinking, that some of these identities like Poppy1016, The Machine, Kaosium and Skeptical Bystander aren't these peoples real names and the use of aliases on these forums is common.

I've noticed that since I commented on my little trips over to the dark side, that there seems to be one or two more people from over there dropping in here and as usual the debate just carries on arguing with neither side ever really ready to fold, on any issue at all, until all hope is finally lost.

Maybe it could be time to forget the talk, and for the different sides to meet on a barren field on neutral ground with two teams of elected champions armed only with large rather dangerousish looking kitchen knives and bra-clasps, then have the trial verdict decided by them fighting it out to the death....

 

[theRealBob]

Looks like another person for Stefanoni to sue, I imagine Maresca will take the case.

About bloody time someone else got sued. I was getting worried for a while....

 

[komponisto]

Any predictions out there?

1. Giuseppe Novelli will not testify that Stefanoni's results are reliable: 75% confidence. (Supporting evidence: Novelli's scientific background and reputation.)

2. Some event in court -- a witness statement, judge's remark, cross-examination exchange, facial expression, whatever -- will be reported by press as undermining Conti and Vecchiotti and supporting Stefanoni: 60% confidence. (Supporting evidence: the way Rudy's testimony and Stefanoni's threats to sue have been reported.)

3. Conditioned on the previous prediction coming true, the event in question will significantly influence the decision as reported in the motivation document: 10% to 20% confidence. (Obtained by assuming it is at least 50% likely that the event will be cited in the motivation as a reason for doubting Conti and Vecchiotti in the event that Knox and Sollecito are convicted.)

4. Knox and Sollecito will be acquitted by the Hellmann court: 80% confidence. (Supporting evidence: high base rate of reversal, Knox and Sollecito's actual innocence, decision to grant review, and results of review.)

 

[JREF2010]

I predicted Stefanoni would fight back hard. These people are crazy.

I'm going to watch for Maresca's responses and actions too. It should be very telling if he plans to go down with the ship or become a full member in the Mignini theory club.

The easiest out and face saving seems to be blame it all on Stefanoni's data. And they can still kick the dog, with the calunnia/slander trial.

What else is there?

What can Stefanoni, Maresca, or Mignini, really do to intimidate or threaten the "C&V team"?

It will be an interesting stage this time, its very cloudy to guess how the prosecution will approach this paradigm shift in the Perugia courtroom.

 

[Poppy1016]

Is the judge actually going to allow the prosecution to argue with the results given by his chosen experts?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

my prediction

If Novelli comes out swinging, the defense will bring up his previous opinion on the Raniero Busco case, as Frank Sfarzo noted.

 

[Slayhamlet]

Italy doesn’t hold the record for number of Human Rights Violations for nothing. The right to a speedy trial is their biggest violation. The right to a fair trial is their second most numerous violation. Even though Italy is 15 times more likely to violate your Human Rights in a court of law then say a country like Russia which is also tracked… Italy seems immune to any and all sanctions laid out by the European Court Of Human Rights who tracks these violations. How proud the Italians must be of their judiciary.

Apologies for going off topic, but where are you getting these numbers from? I know Italy is among the worst of the western European states in terms of human rights abuses, but I'm quite skeptical that it's 15 times worse than Russia. I suppose you're talking specifically about suspect's and defendant's rights rather than human rights in general, but even then I'm a bit skeptical of this claim.

 

[RoseMontague]

Apologies for going off topic, but where are you getting these numbers from? I know Italy is among the worst of the western European states in terms of human rights abuses, but I'm quite skeptical that it's 15 times worse than Russia. I suppose you're talking specifically about suspect's and defendant's rights rather than human rights in general, but even then I'm a bit skeptical of this claim.

I haven't see the 15 times worse numbers either but the ECHR charts have Italy as one of the worst. One thing to consider is that Russia's population is more than twice that of Italy and the charts have just a comparison in number of judgments and not a per capita figure. Right to a fair trial and length of trial were among the really bad numbers for Italy.

 

[ForTruth]

My prediction.
The attempts to discredit the DNA report will fall flat in court but may make for some ambiguous headlines.
Mignini finally sees the writing on the wall and stops appearing in court after Monday as Costagliola notches down the prosecution's stance and after the summer break he will suggest dismissal in his concluding arguments. The summer break will give Mignini and Comodi time to work out their exit strategy. All the while Maresca will run around like a loose canon, even in court and after acquittal.
Let's see how much of this is true before I get into all the ancillary charges (calumnia... etc...)

 

[Fine]

The hearing has begun. The Court-appointed experts................

Carla Vecchiotti, left. Stefano Conti, right.

///

 

[billyryan]

Any predictions out there?

I predicted way back in December that first Curatolo and then Stefi would be thrown under the bus. I am sticking with that one.

The only question is was she thrown under the bus or did she dive under it and who might she pull under it with her