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UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

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Was it your characteristically shoddy research skills that caused you to miss that Ron Johnson had attempted other hoaxes or was your deliberate and dishonest tactic to omit the information that caused you to not post links to those other hoax attempts in the Delphos case?

The one where you claimed it positively defied plausible mundane explanations.
Rramjet for the love of humanity, please just answer the question with something approaching intellectual honesty for a change. Despite what you may think, your answer to this question is on-topic (thus justifying RoboTimbo’s dogged pursuit of the truth in this matter) and is in fact central to the premise of this thread that you yourself established with the title…

UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

Did you, or did you not, research this case yourself involving a person known to have made a number of other highly questionable claims of a fantastical nature, which you did not disclose for some reason if you knew about it, before you presented it here as “evidence” of “aliens”?

Before you answer that, imagine you are a UFOlogist and you see someone like yourself who’s ostensibly representing the “cause” post “evidence” in a highly visible venue inhabited by the “enemy” from someone who many, including UFOlogists, consider a known hoaxer or simply not credible, keeping in mind said “ambassador” has been “caught” presenting thoroughly debunked cases before as “evidence” in said venue.

Now, what do you have to say to them?
 
No, I really don´t have any evidence about aliens. I also don´t have any evidence about people seeing dreams.

You know. This is a metaphora, I admit, but I´ve always wondered that if only one people would see dreams he couldn´t prove it never.

We could still argue about dreaming. Is it possible to see things when in sleep eyes closed. Where is the evidence? All we have is stories about dreams. EEG only shows brain activity but where is the actual proof of seeing and believing. Okay. I admit that this might be a far fetched thinking.

I still also think that when discussing UFOs the sceptics point-of-views is a an absolute necessity. Otherwise we could end up into an ufo-religion sort of thing yet I also think that we must apply all will to investigate into the UFO-cases also, since in the weight of evidence there seems to be something to investigate. We must not fall into religion about it yet we must not also fall into religion in debunking.

We must investigate and keep an open mind yet very sceptical mind. Sceptical and scientifical thinking is an absolute tool ton investigate these sort of issues. Certainly we all agree that there is something to investigate since there are a plethora of cases to wonder.

I want to think that I am in between results yet as I can´t say for sure for anything. I also think that there is no reason to clean this thing up under the rug.

Sceptical movement shouldn´t take the position of Vatican or Inquisition as to what is acceptable. History has proven that we have almost always underestimated things.

However if denial gives you satisfaction I don´t seem why you should not change your attitude since there haven´t been presented any proof of things. Of course there can be a discussion about evidence like for example I have not seen any good explanations for cases where there have been objects flying intelligently and having for example radar confirmations.

Can we really so easily dismiss those cases. I can´t.
 
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Can we really so easily dismiss those cases. I can´t.
Yes, sadly we can.
If radar were 100% accurate and didn't suffer from anomalous propagation and other little glitches, it may be more reliable but the best that could be confirmed from present stories (presuming the radar was 100% accurate, which it isn't and never has been), is that something showed up on it. What that something was would still be up for guesses, still the most likely to be the correct guess would be secret military project, unless of course the aliens had taken to not only using our Earth type aviation lighting system on their top secret missions but also using our transponder frequencies and codes in order to identify themselves to our ATC crews. :)
 
Yes, sadly we can.
If radar were 100% accurate and didn't suffer from anomalous propagation and other little glitches, it may be more reliable but the best that could be confirmed from present stories (presuming the radar was 100% accurate, which it isn't and never has been), is that something showed up on it. What that something was would still be up for guesses, still the most likely to be the correct guess would be secret military project, unless of course the aliens had taken to not only using our Earth type aviation lighting system on their top secret missions but also using our transponder frequencies and codes in order to identify themselves to our ATC crews. :)

I think that we do need this kind of explanations. Science demands them and me too. Scepticism is certainly a great tool to investigate and I am sure that I am in the position of "not-knowing". I want to believe that at least some of the stories must have something into it, but who knows really in the end. Issues are certainly complicated. I know a person who told me a ghost experience of a ghost tapping her table as she had asked if there is anybody here and I am sure that she is a sane person. You know, these kind of things really fight the consensus of a normal life. I think that we must discuss and ponder about things and maybe this kind of a discussion is the most profient hopefully. I wonder if we can be sure about science too etc. It is not easy, and that´s the fun of it.
 
@ Tomi

Have you looked in on the 'Critical Thinking in Ufology' thread? There's a fair bit of nonsense in it, but also, I think, a few points that you might find interesting, given the thoughts you've expressed above.

Thanks for the invite. I have read it but my points in these kind of discussions are not so strong that I think that I have nothing to add into them. So you can call me a lurker.

I am happy that there are these discussions in the sense I´ve told that science and scepticism is a tool to disgard stupidity in ufology and ufology should be thankful in that. I also think that not always is the cases so easy to dismiss in the sense of scepticism since there are also some strength in validity of some cases.

I am not a person to decide what is correct and what is not, but certainly I welcome all the discussion in these very difficult issues, which I am sure that both proponents think sometimes that they are not difficult at all. However, finding the consensus is difficult so there is a need to this.

I want to keep an open mind to every effort in both sides since I can´t know or even think what is the reality behind these phenomenons. I hope for a civil and honourable conversation between both sides and also acknowledge the human way of "heating the conversation". I feel that this effect happens when ever either side feels sort of a almost passionable need to defend their case of knowing or proving the "not-proof-knowing".

Either way: "guilty or not-guilty", it is a show that probably will continue for decades. After all scepticism is winning as far is there is a doubt. Yet there is also historical point of scepticism being wrong in the sence of historical thinking. I guess these issues must be looked upon a perspective not locked in our time and it takes time. Who knows who wins. I hope we all do.
 
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Heh, you got me! I think that we must value stories, since if there are a LOT of stories about same issue - we must investigate it.

Stories are fun to listen to and use our imaginations to dream about what they might be. You have probably seen in one of these threads about how a lot of anecdotes don't add up to any kind of evidence, though. There are plenty of people investigating the stories. Nobody has found anything that would indicate aliens yet. That doesn't stop some of them from getting over-excited and jumping to the conclusions that aliens are behind it all and trying to convince others. That's the uncritical thinking, pseudoscientific part of UFOlogy.
 
Heh, you got me! I think that we must value stories, since if there are a LOT of stories about same issue - we must investigate it.
Yes, I'm investigating the truth behind Harry Potter at the moment, but I don't think that 7 stories is enough to make it magically come true. ;)
 
Even the stories about pink unicorn can be solved. The mythology of an unicorn might be as easy as a rhinoceros seen by a traveller. The pink part of course added later to emphasize the unthinkable (by debunkers). Certainly we could think that elves, gnomes etc. could be the old world saying we saw aliens.

Stories. Yes. Okay. Let´s dismiss all of them right now. Do you really think that´s the answer? Do you really think that it would make investigating reality better. Do you want a stamp to dismiss cases as stories. I am sure that you want to investigate them too and just not throw them into a bin. Stories. If we decide that they have no value. What is there to investigate. I hope that you are not scientists in a leading position since if you really think so, then we must rely only on the hard evidence and that is too difficult a position to find anything new.

I probably must stand away from the discussion for a bit now, since I have other issues in my life, but I hope that some of you readers find anything useful in my thought also. If not, then you are welcome to have it your way and only wait for the hard evidence no matter what the case is. Science doesn´t work this way, but let´s not get that into a barrier of a fun discussing UFO´s. It´s so much funnier to decide your side and start to play and have wonderful "WE"-feeling in a game of WE vs. them.

Or should we (and you) grow up?

RRamjet and ufology. I like where you stand. I have not seen any good explanations into the cases you´ve shown. That is actually good for the sceptics community too. Let the discussion continue without ad-hom. Okay. If not. I am not surprised of that.
 
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We could think that elves and gnomes were aliens, but since there is no proof that elves, gnomes, or aliens have ever interacted with humans or that they even existed, there doesn't seem to be a point to that.
 
We could think that elves and gnomes were aliens, but since there is no proof that elves, gnomes, or aliens have ever interacted with humans or that they even existed, there doesn't seem to be a point to that.

Easily one could think that or easily one could think that it adds up to the modern phenomena of aliens thus proving it to be a long phenomena. It could fill some gaps in a hypothetical sense, yet true is that it is hardly an evidence. If we only cry about evidence I think that the discussion is of no-use since what ever evidence is brought upon table it can always be dismissed.

I hardly think that even sceptics do want that. It is so un-scientific anyway. Certainly a story has some value over a non-story at least when there is so much similarities to other stories.

Is there some other examples to story-folklore setting than UFO? I am interested to know since whatever the outcome is it is interesting. I am very happy to find any conclusion in UFO or other paranormal thing that is resolved fully. Who cares what the outcome is. The truth and investigation on it is the thing really. I think that we should just follow the "money"/path or anything that could bring the truth closer.

I also think that ETH and STH can be true at the same time. Reality can have it both ways as things grow from other things and it´s more complicated that we want it to be.
 
Rramjet for the love of humanity, please just answer the question with something approaching intellectual honesty for a change. Despite what you may think, your answer to this question is on-topic (thus justifying RoboTimbo’s dogged pursuit of the truth in this matter) and is in fact central to the premise of this thread that you yourself established with the title…
Oh the humanity, the humanity… yeah right, lets begin with the overblown ad hominem hyperbole and see how far that gets us LOL…

I have answered RoboT’s “dogged” questions so many times now that it has become ridiculous. RoboT has developed a disruptive spam method of posting that seems to slip under the radar of the mods. He asks a question, I reply, he ignores my reply, waits a little, then asks the same question all over again (usually adding the lie that I have not answered and that he has refuted my answer if I have), then he just keeps repeating the question/unfounded assertion/ad hominem etc over and over again no matter how I respond to him. Consequently I usually ignore him totally – on occasion I have replied to a post of his – but I am beginning to learn that I should simply ignore him no matter what.

Did you, or did you not, research this case yourself involving a person known to have made a number of other highly questionable claims of a fantastical nature, which you did not disclose for some reason if you knew about it, before you presented it here as “evidence” of “aliens”?
The Delphos Kansas UFO Landing (11 Feb 1971)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/Kansas.html)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case192.htm)
(http://naturalplane.blogspot.com/2010/10/delphos-kansas-ufo-landing-ring.html)
(http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/Budinger/UT001.pdf)

I merely presented the case for appraisal in this thread. Rarely do I do much in the way of research the cases before I post them. The cases I choose often have already had a great deal of research and have seemed to withstand the test of time. But what better test than presenting them in a forum such as this (when I can get any sense out of the membership that is). If the case stands up under subsequent research and close scrutiny, then that supports my contention that cases exist that defy plausible mundane explanation.

The mundane explanation put forward by the debunkers as an explanation for this case is that it is a hoax. Now I have indicated that while a hoax is always a possibility, nevertheless there is absolutely no evidence in this case to support that assertion.

The boy claimed he saw a small UFO land and take off again, he ran to his parents who saw a UFO disappearing up into the sky. The boy was clearly traumatised by his experience. An independent witness saw a UFO in the area at around the same time. The landing traces were examined scientifically and found to be extremely unusual in nature. In fact the “landing ring” was so unusual, no other example of its kind has ever been found in nature.

He later claimed to have seen a “wolfgirl” in the woods. He sincerely believed that – there is no indication that he was not sincere in his belief. Some few years later some kids were caught hoaxing a “wolfgirl” in the woods (probably motivated by the boy’s original claims).

The boy - it is alleged - later claimed to have developed “psychic powers” – though it is never specified in the reports what those powers were precisely.

Some years later the family was awarded some prize money by a newspaper for it being a “best case”. The family however had no foreknowledge that they would be awarded such a prize, nor did they solicit it.

That is the case in a nutshell. There is no evidence of a hoax. All involved seem to sincerely believe what they have related. The scientifically analysed physical trace evidence supports their story, as does the independent eyewitness. The only hoax was the years later kids in the woods thing, but that had nothing to do with the boy or the family.

As I have repeated many times now – if anyone has any evidence for a hoax in this case then they should present it. Merely repeating the scurrilous and unfounded assertion that it was a hoax – or that I have not addressed the issue on numerous occasions - is disingenuous in the extreme.
 
I also think that ETH and STH can be true at the same time. Reality can have it both ways as things grow from other things and it´s more complicated that we want it to be.


That argument clearly shows you're willing to abandon reality in favor of pursuing some nonsense you can fabricate in your head. Since you're admitting that any old thing anyone can make up is as valid to you as any other, any further argument you can make will be completely meaningless when considering reality. Great for fantasy. Totally dishonest intellectually. Right along the party line of the rest of the alien believers who frequent these threads.
 
That argument clearly shows you're willing to abandon reality in favor of pursuing some nonsense you can fabricate in your head. Since you're admitting that any old thing anyone can make up is as valid to you as any other, any further argument you can make will be completely meaningless when considering reality. Great for fantasy. Totally dishonest intellectually. Right along the party line of the rest of the alien believers who frequent these threads.

I would agree if the stories were of raredom yet they seem to be more of a folklore kind of a thing, meaning: not every story gets wings under and spreads like a wildfire. I think that the tools of a scepticism is what we must use to separate "good" stories from the bad ones. By this I mean that the stories that seem not to sink are the ones to investigate. Then there are stories that don´t live but sink, those we can deny. In UFO stories it´s the same thing. There are absolutely bad ones and also good ones. Rramjet has shown as some of the good ones. Good meaning here that there is a lot of things to investigate even scientifically (not just some folklore). Surely they are only stories found in internet yet there must be something behind it. Or must there be? If we say that they can remain only stories then we have abandoned a great amount of data about the case. Can we accept the data? Surely not if we want to keep the status of "nothing to see here, please move forward."

If we however take the stories as they are told, we must abandon science as it is now for some. (Certainly some scientists could also acknowledge some phenomenons in theoretical sense). But let´s say we keep the science as we certainly know it working for now: that means we must speculate.

I think that there is a lot of speculation about the phenomenon. I am willing to accept some aerial electrical phenomenon for UFO activity in outer layers in Earth. I think that it could explain at least some of the phenomena.

Alien explanation is one, that is fun to believe yet I agree that there is not bullet-proof evidence of that. I am sure that most of the people here agree to this: This issues must be investigated.

All I can say is: I am not sure of anything. I think that Rramjet has shown really interesting cases (thanks for him for that) and I feel it has given a lot to think about.

I wonder what we will know thousand years from now. Or million. And I know it´s a bit of a naive thinking.
 
Oh the humanity, the humanity… yeah right, lets begin with the overblown ad hominem hyperbole and see how far that gets us LOL…

I have answered RoboT’s “dogged” questions so many times now that it has become ridiculous. RoboT has developed a disruptive spam method of posting that seems to slip under the radar of the mods. He asks a question, I reply, he ignores my reply, waits a little, then asks the same question all over again (usually adding the lie that I have not answered and that he has refuted my answer if I have), then he just keeps repeating the question/unfounded assertion/ad hominem etc over and over again no matter how I respond to him. Consequently I usually ignore him totally – on occasion I have replied to a post of his – but I am beginning to learn that I should simply ignore him no matter what.
No, you lie when you say you've answered it. It's important that you do answer it because it addresses your research ability or your honesty in presenting cases, you let us know which it is. You continue to lie when you say you've answered it. If you were to say that you've waffled and not answered it, you would be telling the truth and I would be the first to admit it.

Did you deliberately and overtly omit any reference to the boy's other hoaxing attempts so that you could pretend to eliminate HOAX as a plausible mundane explanation or was it the typical substandard research ability of pseudoscientists that caused you to miss it when you declared this case to "positively defy plausible mundane explanation"?

I merely presented the case for appraisal in this thread. Rarely do I do much in the way of research the cases before I post them. The cases I choose often have already had a great deal of research and have seemed to withstand the test of time. But what better test than presenting them in a forum such as this (when I can get any sense out of the membership that is). If the case stands up under subsequent research and close scrutiny, then that supports my contention that cases exist that defy plausible mundane explanation.
Ok, you don't research cases before you declare them to "positively defy plausible mundane explanation". So it seems that you're saying here that it was your substandard research ability. If that's what you're admitting, we can then move on.

The mundane explanation put forward by the debunkers as an explanation for this case is that it is a hoax. Now I have indicated that while a hoax is always a possibility, nevertheless there is absolutely no evidence in this case to support that assertion.
The non-mundane explanation put forward by the creduloid pseudoscientists is pseudoaliens. While we have ample evidence for HOAX, we have none for pseudoaliens.

The boy claimed he saw a small UFO land and take off again, he ran to his parents who saw a UFO disappearing up into the sky. The boy was clearly traumatised by his experience. An independent witness saw a UFO in the area at around the same time. The landing traces were examined scientifically and found to be extremely unusual in nature. In fact the “landing ring” was so unusual, no other example of its kind has ever been found in nature.
There is no critical thinking in your paragraph above. What "landing traces"? Are you talking about the known fungus? Why do you credulously call it "landing traces" or a "landing ring" when there is no evidence that anything landed?

He later claimed to have seen a “wolfgirl” in the woods. He sincerely believed that – there is no indication that he was not sincere in his belief. Some few years later some kids were caught hoaxing a “wolfgirl” in the woods (probably motivated by the boy’s original claims).
You have displayed no critical thinking in the above paragraph. Why do you credulously assert without evidence that he sincerely believed?

The boy - it is alleged - later claimed to have developed “psychic powers” – though it is never specified in the reports what those powers were precisely.
That's because he never specified what those powers were precisely. Do you now also credulously believe in psychic powers?

Some years later the family was awarded some prize money by a newspaper for it being a “best case”. The family however had no foreknowledge that they would be awarded such a prize, nor did they solicit it.
Which "news" paper was that again? Of what concern is it that the family would have no way of knowing if they would win a prize which they were competing for?

That is the case in a nutshell. There is no evidence of a hoax. All involved seem to sincerely believe what they have related. The scientifically analysed physical trace evidence supports their story, as does the independent eyewitness. The only hoax was the years later kids in the woods thing, but that had nothing to do with the boy or the family.
There is evidence of a HOAX, despite your protestations. It is amazing to me and anyone reading this that you can continue to claim that there is no evidence of a HOAX but that it is evidence of pseudoaliens.

And if you are now admitting that the other hoaxed wolf girl sighting three years later had nothing to do with Ron Johnson's hoax sighting, why did you earlier try to defend it by saying the later one caused the Johnson boy's sighting? More of your shoddy research?

As I have repeated many times now – if anyone has any evidence for a hoax in this case then they should present it. Merely repeating the scurrilous and unfounded assertion that it was a hoax – or that I have not addressed the issue on numerous occasions - is disingenuous in the extreme.
As you've scurrilously tried to weasel your way out of answering a straightforward question that goes to the heart of the matter, and as you've scurrilously tried to weasel Ron Johnson out of being caught in his hoaxing attempts just to shore up your belief in pseudoaliens, you are disingenuous in the extreme.

However, I accept your admission that it is the sorry state of your research ability that caused you to honestly do nothing to find out about Ron Johnson's other hoaxing attempts and therefore caused you to continue in your belief that pseudoaliens did it.
 
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