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How can Dawkins redeem himself?

I'm not sure what prompted all of that. I'm focusing only on the symbolism of coffee. That's all. I've not taken sides on this. I think the discussion a good thing. I don't feel that we need to have a finding of fact as to who was in the right and who was in the wrong. Take that up with someone else.

If we need to consider the symbolism of one party's words then we should consider the symbolism of the other. Sauce for the goose. I'm tot trying to find equivalency, I'm trying to be find consistency.

Please don't try to be consistent using someone's sarcasm. That way lies madness.

Also, if you want to play "let's get into the mind of EG, to better understand the poor lad" I am out of that game. It's boring and stupid.
 
It's not a "fair question". It sounds like you meant well but I still have to protest.

I suggested a single woman leaving the bar at 4am indicated it should be OK to present a polite inquiry if there might be any mutual interest. Bookitty equated that with my saying the woman leaving the bar at 4am was a slut. And bookitty has little insight as to why this is a straw man.

No, not a "fair question".

Really, so any woman who is at a bar at 4 AM is fair game? Why is that? Especially why is that after she has declared herself done for the night?
 
It's not a "fair question". It sounds like you meant well but I still have to protest.

I suggested a single woman leaving the bar at 4am indicated it should be OK to present a polite inquiry if there might be any mutual interest. Bookitty equated that with my saying the woman leaving the bar at 4am was a slut. And bookitty has little insight as to why this is a straw man.

No, not a "fair question".
Well, iguess it depends on whether or not the question is rhetorical. I've no problem with the question per se. It's the answer that might be in dsipute. But I won't push the issue.
 
Please don't try to be consistent using someone's sarcasm. That way lies madness.
Only if you don't like to be hung on your own petard.

Also, if you want to play "let's get into the mind of EG, to better understand the poor lad" I am out of that game. It's boring and stupid.
Now that would be a straw man. No interest in going there. Don't care. Don't think it matters. I only care what is prima facie. That which we know. That's it.
 
Really, so any woman who is at a bar at 4 AM is fair game? Why is that?
Because lots of women have said that they would not have minded. Some would have taken the guy up on his offer.

Especially why is that after she has declared herself done for the night?
Not all declarations from all people are absolute. No risk no reward. Now, it's not something I would do but I was far from the prolific alpha male.
 
Rand, you're looking at EG as a unique circumstance instead of an illustrative one.

Let's say you are in a movie theater. The people behind you are talking, not too loud but enough that your enjoyment of the film is lessened. You asked them to shush. Then at the end of a video discussing the movie and how much you enjoyed it, you mention these people and you say "Guys don't do that."*

It doesn't matter if the people behind you were on a first date and couldn't get enough of each other, habitual movie-talkers, or wired on caffeine and couldn't shut up. Knowing their story won't make the annoyance any less, even if it is a situation that is empathetic. it also doesn't lessen the message "This is annoying, please don't do that."

* And then the internet got involved and started saying "But that doesn't bother me, I mean if you go to the movies somebody is going to be talking and you really should get used it. Besides, there's footage of you being very loud in a totally different situation, so you're a hypocrite! I'm Richard Dawkins here to tell you that there are people in Cameroon who have never even seen a movie! What about me! I talk in movies all the time and it makes the movie better! Who are to say that I shouldn't talk! There is no rational reason to expect people to shut up just because you don't like it! Freedom of loud movie speech! Leeroy Jennnnkins!!!
 
I visit a 10 story building with an elevator and a guard on the first floor. I've been very conscious of taking the elevator alone with woman who are strangers lately. I'm a fairly good looking average guy and I find myself wondering what would ever possess me to ask this stranger to my place for coffee if I lived there. I doubt very much any of them would ever accept as it would seem kinda slutty what with me being a stranger and maybe even possibly dangerous since they don't know me.

Then I factor in the time of day and I notice the later it is the worse it would be to the point that if I did this consistently to strangers there at 4am I'm certain one of them would report me to management for the above reasons. I'm certain I would feel kinda creepy doing it. If I want to meet one of the woman in the building I will find a better, less alarming, way then that.

The point of a blog is to write about one's personal experiences and so it's certainly within the norm for RW to blog on this event in her life and her impressions of it. That's what blogs are for. And it was pretty mild.

The rest of the event and accusations I have no opinion on.
 
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I visit a 10 story building with an elevator and a guard on the first floor. I've been very conscious of taking the elevator alone with woman who are strangers lately. I'm a fairly good looking average guy and I find myself wondering what would ever possess me to ask this stranger to my place for coffee if I lived there. I doubt very much any of them would ever accept as it would seem kinda slutty what with me being a stranger and maybe even possibly dangerous since they don't know me.

Then I factor in the time of day and I notice the later it is the worse it would be to the point that if I did this consistently to strangers there at 4am I'm certain one of them would report me to management for the above reasons. I'm certain I would feel kinda creepy doing it. If I want to meet one of the woman in the building I will find a better, less alarming, way then that.

The point of a blog is to write about one's personal experiences and so it's certainly within the norm for RW to blog on this event in her life and her impressions of it. That's what blogs are for. And it was pretty mild.

The rest of the event and accusations I have no opinion on.

I was on an elevator yesterday, alone with a man <collective gasp!> He gave me one of those shrug smiles that sort of recognizes that elevators are just a little odd and that nobody knows what to say. I smiled back in an agreeing sort of way and that was it. It was really nice, actually. I waved on the way out.
 
Rand, you're looking at EG as a unique circumstance instead of an illustrative one.

Let's say you are in a movie theater. The people behind you are talking, not too loud but enough that your enjoyment of the film is lessened. You asked them to shush. Then at the end of a video discussing the movie and how much you enjoyed it, you mention these people and you say "Guys don't do that."*

It doesn't matter if the people behind you were on a first date and couldn't get enough of each other, habitual movie-talkers, or wired on caffeine and couldn't shut up. Knowing their story won't make the annoyance any less, even if it is a situation that is empathetic. it also doesn't lessen the message "This is annoying, please don't do that."

* And then the internet got involved and started saying "But that doesn't bother me, I mean if you go to the movies somebody is going to be talking and you really should get used it. Besides, there's footage of you being very loud in a totally different situation, so you're a hypocrite! I'm Richard Dawkins here to tell you that there are people in Cameroon who have never even seen a movie! What about me! I talk in movies all the time and it makes the movie better! Who are to say that I shouldn't talk! There is no rational reason to expect people to shut up just because you don't like it! Freedom of loud movie speech! Leeroy Jennnnkins!!!
No. Not even close.

Interesting though because I stopped going to theatres because people talk too much during movies. You illustrate my view so perfectly. Thank you. I accept that society may change around me. I accept that people may come to accept the idea that people talk in movie theatres. I'm not so solipsistic as to think my view must be defended at all costs. I'd happily have that discussion with others who talk in theatres. I'd happily try to persuade others that my view is likely better for all (because I think it is). I wouldn't presume that I had to be right and that I couldn't be persuaded to think differently. I wouldn't act as Rebecca did and presume to speak for all women nor would I presume anything about people who talk in theatres. Their motivations are irrelevant. And I would NOT make sweeping statements like she did about white male privelage based on charachteristics of people I observe talking in theatres.

It might be creepy to some that people talk in theatres. To some it might be indicitive of social immaturity. It might be indicitive of pathology. I don't give a damn WHY people talk in a movie theatre. It's entirely irrelevant.

One more time, I understand RW's complaint and think it's a good point for discussion. I don't give a damn about EG's motivations. I don't give a damn if you have statistical data to show EG's likely motivations. Don't care. At all. None. Nada. Zip.

That he took no for an answer is all I care about. If I asked people talking in a theatre to hold it down and they did that would be all that would matter. End of story.
 
That he took no for an answer is all I care about. If I asked people talking in a theatre to hold it down and they did that would be all that would matter. End of story.

We already covered this. Taking no for an answer shouldn't be that big a question. Dear gawd, do we really need to pass out gold stars to those gallant men who refrain from outright rape? What about murder? Do you get points for not committing it?

Society isn't supposed to be gamut that you run through hoping for the least possible harm. It is a system in which the actions of the individual contribute to the whole.

Oh never mind, I just remembered your nym. According to Rand, rape is something that women do to themselves and enjoy.
 
...do we really need to pass out gold stars to those gallant men who refrain from outright rape?
bookitty, do us all a favor and look up the definition of "straw man". Also look up "false dichotomy" as EG could have yelled or been verbally abusive. IOW, there were other options besides rape.

I don't think we need to pass out gold stars to people who take no for an answer. However, it's an important thing that we need to inculcate in men as some DON'T take no for an answer.

Society isn't supposed to be gamut that you run through hoping for the least possible harm. It is a system in which the actions of the individual contribute to the whole.
And? You state a premise with no conclusion. What do we infer from this? That some actions like asking a woman out at 4am are always and only bad?

Oh never mind, I just remembered your nym. According to Rand, rape is something that women do to themselves and enjoy.
Be caeful about the assumptions you make about people. My views of Rand have nothing to do with my views of rape. I like FDR also. I don't judge him solely on the fact that he violated one of the most fundamental of rights when he imprisoned nearly the entire Japanese-American population in internment camps. The world really isn't so black and white.

BTW, while you are looking up "straw man" and "false dichotomy" add to that "ad hominem". Seriously, you need to improve your game.
 
Really, so any woman who is at a bar at 4 AM is fair game? Why is that? Especially why is that after she has declared herself done for the night?
It's impossible to have a discussion with you. I'm really not sure why I keep trying.

A polite statement of interest doesn't have jack to do with "fair game" as you imply.

Let me ask you something. Have you thought about your posts given multiple readers have told you again and again that you are posting straw men? Whether you agree or not, do you at least understand why people keep telling you that you are posting straw men time and time again?


It really does boggle my mind that you perceive so many straw men.
 
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Well, iguess it depends on whether or not the question is rhetorical. I've no problem with the question per se. It's the answer that might be in dsipute. But I won't push the issue.
But it wasn't rhetorical as you are beginning to notice. :)
 
But it wasn't rhetorical as you are beginning to notice. :)
I get your point. In keeping with my history I've miss judged the intentions of posters here at least three times now. Which, as I noted earlier, is rather ironic given the context of the discussion.

However, I really did take bookitty as wanting to have a sincere discussions regarding the merits of the various positions. Oh well.
 
Debasing one's self to earn the forgiveness of a person determined to take offense is a waste of time.
This sums up my view.

Dawkins' comment may not have been necessary, but probably screamed what many others were thinking. And no, it's not sexist.
 
bookitty, do us all a favor and look up the definition of "straw man". Also look up "false dichotomy" as EG could have yelled or been verbally abusive. IOW, there were other options besides rape.

I don't think we need to pass out gold stars to people who take no for an answer. However, it's an important thing that we need to inculcate in men as some DON'T take no for an answer.

And? You state a premise with no conclusion. What do we infer from this? That some actions like asking a woman out at 4am are always and only bad?

Go back to the movie theater talkers. The person turns around and tells the talkers to hush. They do. So now, if we go with your view, those talkers are have done nothing wrong while in the theater. That they stopped is enough to absolve them. It doesn't matter if they do it again in a different theater, as long as they stop when asked.

Talking in a movie theater isn't a huge deal, just a general annoyance. It is one of those social flaws that makes people uncomfortable. In order to get it to stop, the person who is being annoyed must take action.

We don't protect the rights of people to talk in theaters because they will annoy people that have done nothing wrong, because whatever benefit comes from talking in a movie theater is not as important as the harm it causes, even if that harm is just being annoyed.

As much as we all like to think we're independent, we live in large groups and we impact the lives of strangers every time we leave the house. In order to make this larger group work together smoothly, we have developed rules and we have developed a very vague system of interaction that we call manners, politeness or courtesy. This system varies by location (Compare a line in China to a queue in the UK) but it has some constants.

Courtesy protects us from other people's unthinking selfish behavior and it allows us to go about our day with the minimum of friction. As society changes, courtesy changes with it. Five years ago, it was not uncommon to see a group of people at a restaurant who were using their phones. These days it is considered impolite and there is less of it.

Smaller groups also have their own patterns and their own boundaries. A football team that boisterously insults each other doesn't use the same words to strangers in the supermarket. The freethought, atheists, and skeptical communities have also developed their own patterns and habits. As the movement has grown both IRL and online, these habits and patterns are no longer adequate to insure smooth interaction. There are problems, Watson pointed out one of these problems.
 
Go back to the movie theater talkers. The person turns around and tells the talkers to hush. They do. So now, if we go with your view, those talkers are have done nothing wrong while in the theater.
Perhaps not. Morality is a social construct. If society deems it okay then my opinion won't supersede the social contract.

{snipped the rest as it is entirely superfluous. I did read it and I do respect your opinion but it has no bearing on anything}
 

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