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Atheists, quit confusing the two.

Pure Argent said:
Unless you want them to be rational.
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If a belief is compellingly supported by empiric evidences (a requirement of reasoned rationality) it isn't a belief, it has objective verification and is factual. The term "belief," itself, refers to subjective opinions and considerations that are generally without empiric support, or at the least, without compelling or conclusive empiric support.
 
dafydd said:
Believing in an imaginary god is irrational.
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Calling my god imaginary? I'm hurt.

BTW, I'm not sure that irrational thought is such a bad thing. I love my car, despite it being ugly as...well, you get the point.
 
godless dave said:
Rational beliefs require evidences. And what about convincing yourself? Don't you examine your own beliefs to make sure they're based in reality?
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Belief - An opinion lacking referenceable proof.

"Rational beliefs" is an oxymoron, rather equivilant to "objective subjectivity"

I don't have "beliefs" about things with compelling empiric support, I have knowledge of, and understandings about, these things. Beliefs are opinions or considerations held, either without conclusive supporting evidences, or in contradiction to conclusive supporting evidences.
 
TShaitanaku said:
Belief - An opinion lacking referenceable proof.

"Rational beliefs" is an oxymoron, rather equivilant to "objective subjectivity"

I don't have "beliefs" about things with compelling empiric support, I have knowledge of, and understandings about, these things. Beliefs are opinions or considerations held, either without conclusive supporting evidences, or in contradiction to conclusive supporting evidences.
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You're fading away again.
 
Ketyk said:
Calling my god imaginary? I'm hurt.

BTW, I'm not sure that irrational thought is such a bad thing. I love my car, despite it being ugly as...well, you get the point.
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That's not a thought, that's a feeling.
 
TShaitanaku said:
Belief - An opinion lacking referenceable proof.

"Rational beliefs" is an oxymoron, rather equivilant to "objective subjectivity"

I don't have "beliefs" about things with compelling empiric support, I have knowledge of, and understandings about, these things. Beliefs are opinions or considerations held, either without conclusive supporting evidences, or in contradiction to conclusive supporting evidences.
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You just made a compelling argument for not having beliefs at all, and I agree with it.
 
And here's the sound logic for getting a positive claim out of a lack of evidence:

P1: A person asserts that X exists.

P2: There is no empiric evidence suggesting the existence of X.

Therefore, X does not exist.
 
TShaitanaku said:
If a belief is compellingly supported by empiric evidences (a requirement of reasoned rationality) it isn't a belief, it has objective verification and is factual. The term "belief," itself, refers to subjective opinions and considerations that are generally without empiric support, or at the least, without compelling or conclusive empiric support.
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We've had threads arguing the semantics of belief vs conclusion, god beliefs vs scientific assumptions about underlying principles, faith vs trust and so on. Unfortunately the vocabulary we use does not always have clean definitions. It's best to communicate the differences you are discussing in the context you mean them.
 
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TShaitanaku said:
Belief - An opinion lacking referenceable proof.

"Rational beliefs" is an oxymoron, rather equivilant to "objective subjectivity"

I don't have "beliefs" about things with compelling empiric support, I have knowledge of, and understandings about, these things. Beliefs are opinions or considerations held, either without conclusive supporting evidences, or in contradiction to conclusive supporting evidences.
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If I conclude something based on evidence, I also believe that conclusion is correct. I can conclude my belief is correct because I have evidence supporting that belief.

You should argue your point, but not your definition of belief because there is no universally accepted definition that belief only means a conclusion without empiric evidence.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
You should argue your point, but not your definition of belief because there is no universally accepted definition that belief only means a conclusion without empiric evidence.
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True, but I enjoy such debates. I like to exercise my critical thinking once in a while, aware that 'definitions' can be useful at times. It can get overly technical, but a reminder of the direction we are headed is needed, to avoid mis-understandings.
 
Tricky’s hierarchy of belief. The higher in the list, the more rational.

I) Beliefs based on empirical evidence
___1) Based on personally observed empirical evidence
______a) Evidence is always the same (e.g. “gravity works”)
______b) Evidence is often the same (e.g. “aspirin works”)
______c) Evidence is reliable more than half the time (e.g. “dark clouds mean rain”)

___2) Based on reliable studies
______a) Large volumes of consistent evidence (e.g. “germ theory of disease”)
______b) Smaller volumes of consistent evidence (e.g. “polio vaccine works”)
______c) Inconsistent but with predominance of evidence (e.g. “global warming”)

II) Beliefs based on moral code
___1) Unshakable moral beliefs (e.g. “murder is bad”)
___2) Conditional moral beliefs (e.g. “lying is bad, unless you are a POW being questioned”)
___3) Variable moral beliefs. (e.g. “homosexuals are bad, except the ones I know and like personally”)

III) Beliefs based on faith
___1) Witnessing
______a) Personally witnessing phenomena you cannot explain but by faith
______b) Anecdotal accounts of phenomena you cannot explain but by faith
___2) Based on teachings of a person of faith that you respect.
___3) Based on a feeling that “it must be so”.
 
TShaitanaku said:
If a belief is compellingly supported by empiric evidences (a requirement of reasoned rationality) it isn't a belief, it has objective verification and is factual. The term "belief," itself, refers to subjective opinions and considerations that are generally without empiric support, or at the least, without compelling or conclusive empiric support.
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If that's the definition that you're using, then you must accept that no belief can ever be rational.
 
godless dave said:
And here's the sound logic for getting a positive claim out of a lack of evidence:

P1: A person asserts that X exists.

P2: There is no empiric evidence suggesting the existence of X.

Therefore, X does not exist.
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Therefore, X doesn't meet the scrutiny of the scientific process, which points to its non-existence, buy it could still exist.
 
ServiceSoon said:
Therefore, X doesn't meet the scrutiny of the scientific process, which points to its non-existence, buy it could still exist.
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I'm not talking about the scientific process, but the basic empirical process we all use to determine if something exists.
 
Pure Argent said:
If that's the definition that you're using, then you must accept that no belief can ever be rational.
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True by his definition. I just put my mandolin back in its case. I believe that next time I open the case it will be there. Is that irrational?
 
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