Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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still waiting

platonov,

You wrote, "t should keep us all busy till halides1 responds on the 'autosomic STRs vs Y Chromosome profiles' confusion I asked about here." I will not respond to any questions from you until you acknowledge that you mischaracterized what I said about the cartwheels. I thought I already made that clear.
 
I think they will say it's a testament to the juggernaut of a PR campaign that bought the minds of the some of the leading journalists in the media today. 'Tis pity, but it happens. Sigh.

Also they will have to say that JREF forum community was only pretending to use science and logic to come up with substantially the same arguments and criticisms the defence used, well in advance of the official reports and the verdict.

We were of course being paid off by a PR company and/or threatened by the mafia to present those arguments and criticisms. It was all a well-orchestrated, multi-million-dollar mafia master plan to destroy Mignini.

Also, the JREFers are conspiracy theorists. :rolleyes:
 
platonov,

You wrote, "t should keep us all busy till halides1 responds on the 'autosomic STRs vs Y Chromosome profiles' confusion I asked about here." I will not respond to any questions from you until you acknowledge that you mischaracterized what I said about the cartwheels. I thought I already made that clear.


Your call.

I already know the answer, obviously - its hardly rocket science :)

But certain (most) posters were confused apparently.
 
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I will just post this link.
You do know that PMF or Wiki or the cheerleader or S Moore or the baby Jesus don't get to judge the case & also that this is JREF and the thread subject is the Knox trial.


I was wondering if the prosecution or defense were asked if there were any objections to the appointments of the independent experts.

No I think they were waiting to ask us first
 
Also they will have to say that JREF forum community was only pretending to use science and logic to come up with substantially the same arguments and criticisms the defence used, well in advance of the official reports and the verdict.

We were of course being paid off by a PR company and/or threatened by the mafia to present those arguments and criticisms. It was all a well-orchestrated, multi-million-dollar mafia master plan to destroy Mignini.

Also, the JREFers are conspiracy theorists. :rolleyes:


What the FSM??!?!? I didn't get my check!

Show me the money!!
 
When it's all over but the shouting...

...this is what they will be shouting:

Giancarlo Castagliola: "Ain't gonna be no rematch!"
Claudio Hellmann: "So this is what it feels like to be the most popular judge in Italy!"
Giuliano Mignini: "I am not corrupt - and the result of the first trial proves it!"
The Flying Squad: "We only did what the PM told us!"
Francesco Maresca: "They got off on a technicality!"
Rudy Guede: "I wonder what will be the really hot clubs in Milan in 2013?"
Patrizia Stefanoni: "NEVER send me back to Perugia!"
Stefano G: "The only reason I polished the blade with her underpants was to make it shinier!"
 
It is truly something to watch the smear campaign being launched against Conti and Vecchiotti by the "idiots" (LJ's nickname for them is sticking in my mind!).

Where were these people before the results came out? Maybe I just didn't pay enough attention, but I don't seem to recall any wild protestations about the inadequacy of Conti and Vecchiotti's credentials back when Hellmann appointed them in December/January (formally in January, but IIRC it was known who they were going to be in December). That would have been the time to complain about the experts' "lack of experience", "library card" methods (since when did libraries become an instrument of derision?), "unworldly academic" nature, and so forth; as opposed to waiting until after you get a result you don't like, and thereby exposing the thoroughly disingenuous nature of your pretensions.

And observe the curious paradox the guilters have boxed themselves into: they claim that Conti and Vecchiotti are advocating standards of forensic work that are excessively high -- and to support this contention they argue that Conti and Vecchiotti's citations are somehow not rigorous enough. This sort of contradiction is such a transparent demonstration of motivated skepticism that it's almost pitiful.

Here, by the way, is The Machine on Carlo Torre:




I'll let pass that The Machine means "i.e." instead of "e.g." and "Knox" instead of "Sollecito" to concentrate on the more salient aspect of this comment, which is that, according to the psychology underlying it, anything and everything about people who disagree is bad. Carlo Torre can't just be an internationally respected scientist who, for some subtle reason that The Machine in Its wisdom could coherently explain, is mistaken in his opinion about how many people killed Meredith; no, he must be an intellectual prostitute so cynical in his avarice that he has no compunction about helping evil people to get away with horrendous crimes.

We see another example of the same mentality from Ganong, who wants to make sure we know that Le Journal du Dimanche is "fairly close to tabloid journalism" after it published an innocent little article about the negative effect of the Knox affair on Perugia tourism. An article that, mind you, took no position on the merits of the case, or even whether the dropoff was due more to fear of the "evil" students or of the overzealous authorities. So what was so objectionable about it? It was recommended by Candace Dempsey, a known innocence supporter.

So, just for fun, would anyone care to predict what these people will say in the event that the Hellmann court decides to acquit Knox and Sollecito? They've already been laying the groundwork: it was a Mafia conspiracy involving bribes by rich Seattlites of incompetent scientists and judges, and aided by amoral profiteers masquerading as prestigious pathologists, that just proved too much for even the most valiant efforts of the true heroes in this story, Patrizia Stefanoni, Edgardo Giobbi, and Giuliano Mignini.

Kompomisto, for your amusement, I accumulated what the Machine/Harry rag was posting all over the web about how "ominous" the expert's report was before anyone had seen it.
 
Komponisto, for your amusement, I accumulated what the Machine/Harry rag was posting all over the web about how "ominous" the expert's report was before anyone had seen it.

I want somebody to produce a citation showing that Giuseppe Novelli has "looked at the data and [come] to the same conclusions as Dr. Stefanoni".

I don't believe it for a minute. Not without specific confirmation.

Here is an interview with Giuseppe Novelli. In the first minute and a half he describes his professional biography; he is a scientist, not a criminal-justice type. He makes a point of noting that his interests are at the frontiers of research in genetics, which was problematic when he worked at a Catholic university.

I'll say it again: if this man stands up in court to defend Stefanoni against Conti and Vecchiotti, I shall be truly astonished.
 
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It is truly something to watch the smear campaign being launched against Conti and Vecchiotti by the "idiots" (LJ's nickname for them is sticking in my mind!).


I'm gobsmacked. Several people said to me, in public and in private, that if I wanted to understand the compelling case against Knox and Sollecito then I should read the PMF discussion, because [for totally spurious reasons] it wasn't being presented in this thread. Early attempts failed due to the page format being painful to the eye (which is often a warning flag for pernicious rubbish, but I suppose that would be prejudice), but the so-called "white" (pale blue) version is more or less legible so I gave it a go. (I see that my attempt to do what I was told to do to get the other side of the case is now being presented as a "fixation" with another site - I find that an interesting attitude too.)

Well. From Fiona admitting she didn't even know what RT-PCR actually was just a few days ago, she's now expert enough to "research" and critique the report of the independent court experts! Others, even "Thoughtful" who was actually more or less getting it, are falling in line. The groupthink (reinforced by simply banning anyone who expresses a contrary view) and intellectual arrogance (using a rather loose definition of "intellectual") on display are a sight to behold. I've seen less biassed assessment of anti-homoeopathy papers from the AltMed crowd.

Here's a string of quotes from the most recent page, with no attempt to attribute them to particular posters.

They're proposing a procedure which may or may not be an approved procedure at the Polizia Scientifica.
That's why 25 JUL is important. Stefanoni can slap down the checklists and manuals and they can go through them looking for this procedure that C&V claim was in the book.

Giving the air of a copy-paste set of notes from a friend does not really cut the mustard, IMO. Academics should be setting a better example in terms of researching standards, IMHO.

I agree - in fact, it almost reads like a course readings assignment list for someone teaching a class in Criminal Justice in the United States or something - and not a very good one at that.

So the C&V paper is a collection of observations based on introductory crime scene textbooks and other such? This is very problematic if the results wind up being a part of the court's judgement.
If I didn't know any better, they collected their fee and submitted a full report parenthetically to include a few specific procedural objections. This is worse than peer review and worse than what Dr Library Card does. It's deceptive and close to fraudulent.

I find it curious that you leap to the defence of people who have certainly used inappropriate references, at best: and yet you say you would hesitate to criticise an expert who knows 1000 times more than you do in her domain. Stefanoni is an expert in her domain: and it is not academia. How many crime scenes have the report's authors investigated?

This list of references looks suspiciously like it was handed to the experts. I find it hard to believe that these experts are corrupt but something sure smells funny.

I am not much for conspiracy theories but the only alternatives I can think of is that they are outside their field of expertise and genuinely doing work of library card standard: or they are lazy bastards.

Yes, indeed - thanks so much for digging deep on this odeed.
I can't wait to see Carla Vecchioti and Stefano Conti take the witness stand to defend their "work".

The first thing that came to mind when I saw the Bibliography with the unusually high content of USA references was that the authors had taken a similar paper written in the US, kept the references/bibliography and adapted the body of the work to reflect their own investigation. There may not be plagiarism issues involved but it certainly is a lazy approach and reflects poorly on those that perpetrate it.

On the surface, it appears that these "experts" were not, themselves, well-versed in internationally established testing protocol. On the surface, it appears that Stefanoni is going to have a jolly good time debating them in court.

Looks like a swing and miss by the experts…STRIKE ONE. .... The sinking curveball.... gets 'em every time.

Good work by Odeed, indeed. I am looking forward to July 25. I think the pros from Rome (allusion to the movie M*A*S*H in which the picaresque protagonists describe themselves in one of their adventures as "the pros from Dover") may find themselves in the same way as the dead parrot in the Monty Python sketch. They will get their clocks cleaned, taken apart like a two-dollar watch.

Thanks to Fiona, Jools, Catnip and all others for their outstanding research on this.

I wonder if Dr Stefanoni and/or the prosecutor's office read this board. They might find some useful pointers to how to frame their rebuttal of the experts' report!


So, Stefanoni's procedure will be judged fine if she went by the in-house protocols in force in Italy, even if these are grossly inadequate by international standards. I don't think so. (I think it's interesting that there's no reference to any laid-down Italian standards or protocols - it could suggest there simply aren't any!)

The fact that many of the references are quite elementary is taken to reflect not on the elementary nature of the precautions that weren't taken, but on the calibre of the people providing these references. This translates from expert, to ivory-tower academic, to working outside their field and scraping up Janet-and-John citations, to accusations of plagiarism and fraud.

Fiona "I don't actually know what RT-PCR is" is doing "outstanding research", and the posters believe that these efforts will be valuable to the prosecution, and in fact the lawyers should just read this stuff and their job is done for them.

I'm sorry, I know some people don't like it, but there's only one response to this.

:dl:

Actually, it's true. If you want to get a grip on the strength of the pro-guilt case, read that forum. My God, I've read more intellectually rigorous assessments of evidence from chiropractors and acupuncturists.

Rolfe.
 
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protocols

Your call.

I already know the answer, obviously - its hardly rocket science :)

But certain (most) posters were confused apparently.
Platonov,

Feel free to tell us the answer with respect to autosomal versus Y-STR. If I think it is worth the bother, I'll make an exception and respond.

Rolfe,

"thoughtful" made some good points at PMF with respect to the need to follow protocols. If I may paraphrase, she pointed out that if you let evidence in despite their not being followed, you open the door to every piece of equally tainted evidence being admitted, in other words you eliminate the protection against error that the protocol was designed to address.
 
Does the legal system get it wrong ALL of the time? They were wrong in Amanda's case and in Casey's case.

Amanda: 100% innocent with most evidence falsified.
Casey: 90% guilty.

Imagine that Amanda had brought Meredith to a nanny called Zanny (or a granny called Guede) and never brought the disappearance to the attention of the police when she couldn't find Zanny and a defense that said she drowned in the pool. Meanwhile she drives around with something dead in the trunk of her car and tries to blame her actions on childhood abuse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Caylee_Anthony

Tale of two stupid court systems.

What is the probability that Casey is guilty?
What do you think the probability of Amanda's guilt is?
 
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I want somebody to produce a citation showing that Giuseppe Novelli has "looked at the data and [come] to the same conclusions as Dr. Stefanoni".


I scanned Google for some hint of such a claim and was unable to find anything. I did note that if I exclude "h. rag" from the search the results are significantly condensed.

One tidbit discovered on this quest was that apparently it was the university that assigned Novelli to the case. This might just be that because he is an employee he can't take on outside work without their permission.
 
Why would Maresca have the right to question Stefanoni on the stand? What would he ask her?

If we take his comments on the independent experts report at face value he is more likely to attack the credentials, findings and conclusions of C & V. If he does so all I can say is Good Luck! (because he ain't gettin' anywhere with that!)
 
Stefano Conti

Some at PMF are wondering whether the Stefano Conti of the expert DNA report is the same as this person.

It isn't.

Their biographies are different. Vecchiotti's partner is older:

http://www.uniroma1.it/amm-personale/concorsi/commissioni/attivita5/finaleF22BmedRU_ris.htm

* Nato il 28/02/1952.
* Laureato in Medicina e Chirurgia nel 1986. [Graduated in Medicine and Surgery in 1986]
* Specializzato presso l'Università "La Sapienza" di Roma in Medicina Legale e delle Assicurazioni nel 1990 e in Medicina Aeronautica e Spaziale nel 2000 .
* Collaboratore tecnico dal 1991 presso l'Istituto di Medicina Legale dell'Università "La Sapienza" di Roma.
* Assistente (ora Dirigente di I livello) presso il Servizio Speciale di Medicina Legale I del Policlinico Umberto I di Roma dal 1991.
* Perfezionato in Micrografia, Informatica Medica, in Protezione civile e in Metodi per l'analisi delle indagini e dei segnali biomedici presso l'Università "la Sapienza" di Roma.
* Membro supplente nelle Commissioni per gli Esami di Profitto dal 1994.

Whereas the Sheffield fellow's undergraduate education was completed in 1997.

Great comment by Rolfe above, by the way.
 
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More on discovery of the electronic data files

In 2005 the State Police of Michigan opposed the release of the electronic data files, on the grounds that using nonvalidated analysis parameters was tantamount to evidence tampering. With respect to the claim that the defense using the electronic data files constitutes evidence tampering, Professor William C. Thompson wrote, “The claim that defense reanalysis of electronic data could, under any circumstances, amount to ‘evidence tampering’ is absurd given that defense experts work only with a copy of the original data. By analogy, if the police disclosed digital photos of the crime scene, it would hardly be ‘data tampering’ for a defense expert to manipulate the digital images in an effort to enhance them or bring specific details into focus. Nor should the government be able to dictate the software and ‘analysis parameters’ used by a defense expert to examine the government’s digital data. The use of proper analysis parameters might well become an issue if and when the defense decided to offer into evidence the results of its analysis of the electronic data. But to deny access to digital data on grounds that the defense might analyze it improperly eviscerates the right to discovery.”

The Office of the Chief Medical Examiner of New York City now seems to wish to take the same nonsensical position as the State of Michigan. Here are some quotes from a presentation:

“The electronic data files not discoverable under the statutes cited.
Raw data does not exist in a readily accessible form that can be disclosed to the defense.
• Raw Data for up to 96 samples from many cases saved together.
– Sample files
– Project file: processed raw data
– Genotyper file: analyzed data for each “run” • Contains the DNA profiles for each sample • Generates the print outs contained in the case files.”

“Raw electronic data does not have to be disclosed since it could result in the manipulation of data.
People v. Marcoux, No. 2009- 1176-FH (Mich. Cir. Ct., Macomb County, June 24, 2009”

So if I have other files on my computer, how does that stop me from providing you with the files you requested? This argument is just as foolish as the evidence tampering argument, and it looks to me as if it is a shameful attempt to cover up laboratory wrongdoing. It is both sad and ironic that the OCME of NYC took this position because a prior director there, Robert Shaler, helped in the adoption of the ABA standards, which says that the electronic files are discoverable upon request. I bring this up in response to a comment by Fiona at another board.
 
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Two voices of reason at PMF. First thoughtful and now Greggy have spoken out about Stefi's errors. The rest seem in denial.

Isn't Greggy the DNA go to person at PMF?


I suggest that Dr. Stef, like many scientists including myself, was under a consideration amount of pressure (external and self-induced) and wanted to accomplish something great. You will find that many scientists are accomplishment-driven and more apt to lament missing great discoveries than great salaries. The Prosecution was possibly pressuring her for "smoking gun" type evidence and she had an ingenious idea on how to optimize the LCN protocol to obtain maximal sensitivity. The Prosecution was possibly telling her that if she didn't come up with quick DNA results that could directly link Knox and Sollecito to the murder that Knox could be released on bail and gone. in deadline situations like that, scientists are human beings and sometimes cut corners telling themselves that they will go back and do it the right way later with all the controls. Unfortunately, some scientists don't take the high road later and admit that their data interpretations have changed somewhat after re-evaluating the data with controls in place, and some even get defensive about the results that they know in their hearts are shaky, another human reaction. Dr. Stef and her lab did some strong and impressive work on this case; I hope her entire body of work isn't tainted by a couple of over-reaches on her conclusions regrading two small pieces of evidence. In my opinion, she should be flexible, strong yet gracious about her results and interpretations during the upcoming hearing. Such a mien would help neutralize the Appeal DNA experts attacks.
 
For entertainment, I went back in time on TJMK to see what they were saying about the DNA testing well in advance of the test since they often assert unprovable things.
I found a posting by The Machine on Dec 20 2010 which has this conclusion which is laughable now that we know what we know now:

And so in conclusion

One to two years later DNA testing techniques have improved, and also there is the sleeper of what is under the handle of the knife.

The defence teams’ insistence on an independent review could really explode in their faces if the new experts confirm more of Meredith’s DNA on the knife (Knox’s DNA is there very strongly) and that Knox’s DNA is on Meredith’s bra.

Posted by The Machine on 12/20/10 at 09:48 AM
 
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For entertainment, I went back in time on TJMK to see what they were saying about the DNA testing well in advance of the test since they often assert unprovable things.
I found a posting by The Machine on Dec 20 2010 which has this conclusion which is laughable now that we know what we know now:

Wow, just Wow.

This is ominous for the accuracy of other predictions by The Machine.
 
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