Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[komponisto]

TJMK has an article up by The Machine called A Deeply Ugly, Inaccurate And Callous Piece Of Junk By Nathaniel Rich In “Rolling Stone”. Personally I thought the article was pretty good, not perfect, but not bad.

!! I assume you meant to refer to the Rolling Stone piece in the latter sentence.

You can see the discussion on the old (Michael PMF) and it really did not generate much discussion so I am moving it here. I did provide a verbatim quote from Mignini and my conclusion is that there is some truth to the claim and that Mignini is a bit whacked.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/masonic-theory-that-put-knox-in-the-dock-981759.html

From the linked article:

The murder, Il Tempo newspaper reported [Mignini] telling the court, “was premeditated and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Hallowe’en. A sexual and sacrificial rite ... In the intention of the organisers, the rite should have occurred 24 hours earlier” – on Hallowe’en itself – “but on account of a dinner at the house of horrors, organised by Meredith and Amanda’s Italian flatmates, it was postponed for one day. The presumed assassins contented themselves with the evening of 1 November to perform their do-it-yourself rite, when for some hours it would again be the night of All Saints.”

Wow. It looks like Mignini has been caught in a (wait for it) lie.

Let's look at some of the other "false claims" listed. Feel free to give your thoughts on these. I want to talk about Number 2:

False Claim 2: A provincial police force botched one of the most intensely observed criminal investigations in Italy’s history

A Knox cult myth. Nathaniel Rich attempts to disparage the investigation in Meredith’s murder with the smearing claim that it was seriously botched (it wasn’t) and by a provincial police force. Nathaniel Rich is trying to insinuate that that the police officers involved in the investigation were unsophisticated. However, again he only succeeds in revealing his ignorance of even the most basic facts of the case.

Two separate police departments from the Italian equivalent of the FBI in Rome were heavily involved in the investigation into Meredith’s murder: a forensic team from the Scientific Police led by Dr. Stefanoni, and the Violent Crimes Unit, led by Edgardo Giobbi.

They're citing none other than Edgardo "Pizza" Giobbi and Stefanoni to counter the assertion that the investigation was "botched"?

read the Massei report meme

We need a "read the Conti/Vecchiotti report" meme.

 

[zeb]

Rolfe,

I am not sure that I understand your question. I think that the reason to target regions on the Y-chromosome is that in a sexual assault, you might have a mixture between alleged victim and alleged perpetrator in the autosomal DNA. One can sometimes do a differential extraction of cells when semen is present, but I am under the impression that this extraction does not always work. It may be time again to state that the interpretation of mixtures adds an element of subjectivity. Or putting it another way, if two forensics personnel disagree in their interpretation of a mixture, it is not necessarily the case that one is dishonest or incompetent (references available upon request).

Hiya look, I know that I am the dumbo of the pack, but what you said on your web site, a lot of it was way over my head, and still is,
Put thanks for puting the case of DNA in words that I can under stand, and me being a dumbo, that must been hard to do.
well done

 

[RoseMontague]

Moving on:

False Claim 7: The confession, in violation of Italian police policy, was not recorded

Another Knox cult myth. The police weren’t required to record Amanda Knox’s interrogation on 5 November 2007 because she was being questioned as a witness and not as a suspect. Mignini explained that Amanda Knox was being questioned as a witness in his letter to reporter Linda Byron:

“In the same way, Knox was first heard by the police as a witness, but when some essential elements of her involvement with the murder surfaced, the police suspended the interview, according to Article 63 of the penal proceedings code.”

She came in to the central police station voluntarily and unasked that night when Sollecito was summoned for questioning, and police merely asked her if she could also be questioned as a witness. She did not have to agree, but she did. No recording of witnesses is required, either in Italy or the United States.

The exact quote from Rolling Stone is this:

The confession, in violation of Italian police policy, was not recorded — an odd lapse given the intense efforts made previously to document everything Knox said or did. Yet in the court of Italian popular opinion — the highest court in the land, since jurors are not sequestered — the confession remains the single most damning piece of evidence. When I asked Perugians why they thought Knox had been involved, they never mentioned physical evidence or a motive. She admitted to it, they said, shaking their heads.
She signed a confession.

A lot of people on both sides of the debate get this wrong. It is correct that as a witness Italian law does not require the interviews be taped. If they are taped without a lawyer present they are not usable in court. At the point they become a suspect the law requires further interviews be taped and with a lawyer present. Mignini's attempt to get around this with the 5:45AM spontaneous declaration failed miserably with the SC.

His first excuse (in an interview with a Seattle station doing a documentary) he stated that in the rush to go arrest Patrick they forgot to tape it and in the CNN interview he claimed lack of budget money to tape/transcribe it. This despite the intercepted calls were all taped and later transcribed. Mignini knows that the 5:45AM statement should have been taped.

My conclusion is that the claim that Rolling Stone gets this wrong is part true and part false. A distinction needs to be made between the two statements.

 

[RoseMontague]

Next:

False Claim 8: Amanda Knox refused to leave Perugia

This Knox cult myth is actually contradicted by Amanda Knox herself. In the e-mail she wrote to her friends in Seattle on 4 November 2007 she said she was not allowed to leave.

“i then bought some underwear because as it turns out i wont be able to leave italy for a while as well as enter my house”

Knox actually knew on 2 November 2007 that she couldn’t leave Italy. Amy Frost reported the following conversation.

” I remember having heard Amanda speaking on the phone, I think that she was talking to a member of her family, and I heard her say, No, they won’t let me go home, I can’t catch that flight’” (The Massei report, page 37).

The Machine is not correct on this one. The cops were concerned that Amanda would leave the country when her Mom arrived. In the Rolling Stone article it lists several quotes from Amanda regarding this that contradict The Machine:

On November 2nd, Knox's callowness caught up to her. As soon as Kercher's corpse was discovered, the two Italian roommates called their lawyers. Kercher's British friends were even more cautious: Most of them fled the country, returning to the U.K. Edda asked Knox to fly home, or visit her cousin in Germany, but Knox refused. She wanted to see Kercher's family when they arrived in Perugia. She also wanted to help investigators find the killer. Today her mother's greatest regret is that she listened to her daughter. "Had I known that the British girls were out of there, had I known that the first thing her roommates did was lawyer up — had I known all of that? Absolutely, I would've made her come home," says Edda. "I would have had my cousin on the first plane out of Germany to yank her out of there."

"It's so Amanda that it hurts me," says Paxton, who has recently moved to Perugia to help with the case. "People talk about her being a manipulative mastermind. If she is, she's a (edited) idiotic one. If you're a mastermind and you commit this murder, you leave the country. She walked into the police station. She just basically (edited) skipped into the police station."

The cops may have asked her to stick around but I am aware of nothing that would have prevented her from leaving until she became a suspect.

 

[Diocletus]

A lot of people on both sides of the debate get this wrong. It is correct that as a witness Italian law does not require the interviews be taped. If they are taped without a lawyer present they are not usable in court. At the point they become a suspect the law requires further interviews be taped and with a lawyer present. Mignini's attempt to get around this with the 5:45AM spontaneous declaration failed miserably with the SC.
QUOTE]

To me, she was clearly a suspect before the police even started questioning her that evening, regardless of how the police/Mignini describe her status. Therefore, I think the 1:45 statement should have been taped as well.

 

[RoseMontague]

Let's look at another one shall we:

False Claim 10: Mignini referred to Knox as a sex-and-drug-crazed “she-devil”

Another laughable wrong fact. It wasn’t Mignini who called Amanda Knox a “she-devil”, it was Carlo Pacelli, the lawyer who represents Diya Lumumba, at the trial in 2009.

Carlo Pacelli’s comments were widely reported by numerous journalists who were present in the courtroom. Barbie Nadeau describes the moment he referred to Knox as a she-devil in some detail in Angel Face:

“Who is the real Amanda Knox?” he asks, pounding his fist in the table. “Is she the one we see before us here, all angelic? Or is really a she-devil focused on sex, drugs, and alcohol, living life on the edge?”

“She is the luciferina-she devil.” (Barbie Nadeau, Angel Face, page 124).

Again, The Machine is being a bit mendacious with his proof of falsity here. As evidence that Mignini did not say it she presents a quote from someone that did say it. This does not mean that Mignini didn't say it as well. The exact quote from Rolling Stone:

but in his closing argument, he only went so far as to refer to Knox as a sex-and-drug-crazed "she-devil."

It would seem the evidence that this is a false claim by Rolling Stone would exist in the complete closing statement of Dr. Mignini (which is not provided). My conclusion is that this claim from The Machine is pretty silly and amounts to nothing.

 

[RoseMontague]

Proceeding to yet another one:

False Claim 4: Amanda Knox was slapped on the back of the head

I am not sure why I even bother with this one. It is disputed. Even among some that believe in guilt this is accepted as a very real possibility.

 

[RoseMontague]

To me, she was clearly a suspect before the police even started questioning her that evening, regardless of how the police/Mignini describe her status. Therefore, I think the 1:45 statement should have been taped as well.

I agree that it not only should have been taped, she should have had a lawyer. The cops can claim she was not an official suspect and at the same time show they sure did suspect her of this crime. It is a loophole that the cops use to their advantage.

 

[Diocletus]

I agree that it not only should have been taped, she should have had a lawyer. The cops can claim she was not an official suspect and at the same time show they sure did suspect her of this crime. It is a loophole that the cops use to their advantage.

Agreed. To put a further point on it, "witness" questions are questions that deal with observed/known facts about the crime. "Suspect" questions are questions that deal with the interogee's possible involvement.

By the time the cops start asking questions about Knox's alibi, and asking her about what she saw at the time the crime was being committed, we are clearly into "suspect" questions.

The police were targeting Knox as a suspect at least as early as when they started questioning Sollecito about her alibi (probably before). When Sollecito removed the alibi, they clearly thought she was a suspect and started questioning her as such at the commencement of her interrogation. This never should have happened without a lawyer present. The situation that ensued is, I'm sure, the EXACT reason that they have a law requiring the opportunity to have counsel present.

 

[Poppy1016]

On a side note. Casey Anthony has been found not guilty.

 

[komponisto]

On a side note. Casey Anthony has been found not guilty.

I'm impressed. From what little I know of that case, I saw all kinds of reasonable doubt (despite the noticeably pro-prosecution tone of the media coverage), but frankly didn't expect the jury to act on it.

Unlike the Knox case, this seems to be a case where there is a substantial probability of guilt; yet the jury still had sufficient levelheadedness to acquit. For me, this just reinforces how insane the Massei verdict was.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Flying Wedge (False claim No. 7)

My conclusion is that the claim that Rolling Stone gets this wrong is part true and part false. A distinction needs to be made between the two statements.

RoseMontague,

She may have come to the station "voluntarily" but she did not come "unasked," Dr. Giobbi (lead singer of Giobbi and the Swiveling Hips) made it clear in his testimony that he asked for her presence. I also agree with Diocletus. Once Raffaele signed his statement, she should have been considered a suspect and given access to a lawyer. The cops did a Flying Wedge (American football term), and Massei was a referee who chooses not to make the penalty call. The question of what the law in the U.S. is, is irrelevant. As far as false claim number 4 goes, even Barbie Nadeau thought it plausible.
EDT
Perhaps Casey Anthony was overcharged. I am no lawyer, but involuntary manslaughter might have had a better chance.

 

[Poppy1016]

Hi Komponisto, you are thinking exactly what I was thinking.

 

[RoseMontague]

RoseMontague,

She may have come to the station "voluntarily" but she did not come "unasked," Dr. Giobbi (lead singer of Giobbi and the Swiveling Hips) made it clear in his testimony that he asked for her presence. I also agree with Diocletus. Once Raffaele signed his statement, she should have been considered a suspect and given access to a lawyer. The cops did a Flying Wedge (American football term), and Massei was a referee who chooses not to make the penalty call. The question of what the law in the U.S. is, is irrelevant. As far as false claim number 4 goes, even Barbie Nadeau thought it plausible.
EDT
Perhaps Casey Anthony was overcharged. I am no lawyer, but involuntary manslaughter might have had a better chance.

My spouse watched every minute of this thing and was convinced that Casey was innocent. I lost a bet as a result. Excellent representation. btw.

 

[snook1]

Casey Anthony has been found not guilty - now, if the Italian court will convict Amanda Knox, then I will have some serious issues with finding the right words to explain how it happend. The Anthony case was pretty obvious, still there was no direct evidence suggesting she killed her daughter.

Anyone know how many years she'll get for lying to the police?

 

[Poppy1016]

Hi Snook1, It wouldn't surprise me if Casey got off with time served.

 

[lane99]

...It is a little bit silly, in my opinion that The Machine uses a phrase to describe this article that many would use to describe his postings...

Hopefully you're also posting your critiques directly on the blog whereupon resides "The Machine" (whoever that is).

Seems to me that it would be much more effective and useful to confront bogus claims at their source.

 

[Danceme]

Talking heads I heard were saying she'll probably just get probation because lying to the police is considered a misdemeanor, which doesn't carry jail time.

 

[Poppy1016]

Trouble is, almost all that is posted on that blog is bogus. Besides, she would be immediately censored and banned.

 

[snook1]

Talking heads I heard were saying she'll probably just get probation because lying to the police is considered a misdemeanor, which doesn't carry jail time.

She can get up to one year for each count. That gives 4 years together in county jail.

But, from what I've heard on WFTV, she'll probably walk out free on Thursday. She served 3+ years and apparently she behaved good in jail.