Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'd have to reread the testimony to argue with you properly. I suspect that if you read it with the view that her various statements about witnessing the murder weren't the best truth she could remember then some of her statements in court will seem to be untruthful as well.

Exactly. There is an impression that you'll get. The prosecution worked hard during the questioning to create that impression. The problem is that when you delve into the substance of the questions and answers you no longer see any evasion. Straightforward answers that the questioners either try to interrupt at once or they pretend they didn't got and ask again to the point where the judge repeatedly says "she already answered, let's move on".
 
I don't think that in most countries a defence against libel can take the form of "I was only repeating what someone else said". If this were a possible defence, then anyone could employ this sort of approach up-front. For example, if I wanted to print that Mr A was a conman, I could print something along the lines of "I was talking to a friend in the pub, and he says that Mr A is a conman".

If that were the case, why isn't the reporter that printed what they said also charged?

In libal laws that I have looked up, the conditions for libal require that the person making the statement know that the statement is false. In your example, where attributing the statement to "a person in a bar" is itself false makes the statement false and thus subject to libal.

Amanda's parents reported only what their daughter said. They are not attributing this to some undisclosed or unknown party. Also, there is no possibility that they could be reporting first hand knowledge of the event because it was well established that they were on a different continent at the time.

To allow a charge of defamation to proceed against someone for repeating a statement made by someone else will severly limit the ability of the press to report the news. Under such conditions, it wouldn't take long till the press only talked about sports and the weather.
 
Exactly. There is an impression that you'll get. The prosecution worked hard during the questioning to create that impression. The problem is that when you delve into the substance of the questions and answers you no longer see any evasion. Straightforward answers that the questioners either try to interrupt at once or they pretend they didn't got and ask again to the point where the judge repeatedly says "she already answered, let's move on".
Are you saying she says that what she told the police/Mignini wasn't the best truth that she could remember?
 
Take you pick. Since they are less contended, how about the "gift" and her statements in court.

I'd suggest without hesitation that regardless of what statement you take, be it the police interviews, the "gift", or the statements in court, someone will believe that they are true.

My question is why would anyone accept the two police statements as true, they are confused, and lacking in any major details. Having read through numberous police interviews before (for other cases) I have yet to come across a single interview statement as lacking as AK's in any of the cases I have followed. That they could have been considered coffessions in amazing (the worst thing she confessed to was being in the kitchen) and as a basis to charge PL, they are laughable. If a police officer in NZ, and I suspect the US as well, took that to a judge for an arrest warrent, he'd be laughed at and told to go back and get some real evidence, yet that is what the PLE wants us to believe they acted on. I honestly find it baffling that they could have believed those statements if they were gained as they claim, and I find it even more baffling that Mignini still claims to believe them.

As an aside, shuttlt, what would it take for you to have reasonable doubt in this case?
 
Kaosium,

Are you really going to argue that some people don't read Amanda's words/hear her speak and come away with the sincere impression that she isn't being truthful?

Obviously they do! I suppose to me it depends on how much relevance they place on their instincts, and if it's too much, they're little more than any other type of 'psychic' in my mind.

When I was first exposed to them there were two specific moments my 'BS detector' went off regarding her statements, both written and spoken. The first was reading the E-mail, though my suspicion was tempered somewhat by the absurdities propounded by the person 'analyzing' it, and the other was the video of her on the stand about the interrogation in which she says at one point 'I...didn't know what to do.'

However, put in context and considering everything else, I had to come to the conclusion my instincts were wrong, there was a confounding factor in both cases causing her to write/speak in a way I thought suspicious initially that caused me to reconsider. I can do that, being as I know I can't read minds and just because it looks to me like someone is lying doesn't mean they are.

I think those who place too much faith in their 'lie detection' abilities are being irrational, so are they if they believe that if she's lying about one thing she must be lying about everything. That doesn't necessarily follow, one can be innocent of murder and be lying about something so they look less suspicious--because it's their life on the line! Their lawyers might even have told them to.
 
Last edited:
Yes, she's asked about all of it. She answers, without evasions.
Some people believe her explanation in her "gift" for what she said at the police station isn't absolutely truthful. My recollection is that in court she pretty much stands by what she wrote - she certainly doesn't say anything like RoseMontague's explanation. If the "gift" strikes people as her avoiding giving a straightforward account of herself, surely the trial testimony is likely to as well?
 
This is one view. There are others. The whole thing has been talked to death. Is there any more to be said about what people find suspicious about particular sentences?

Depends, if you are refering to the "sudies" on PMF that claim to evaluate her statments for guilt, then if you ask me and my BS detector that doesn't even manage to reach the realms of pseudo-science, so....
 
When I was first exposed to them there were two specific moments my 'BS detector' went off regarding her statements, both written and spoken. The first was reading the E-mail, though my suspicion was temped somewhat by the absurdities propounded by the person 'analyzing' it, and the other was the video of her on the stand about the interrogation in which she says at one point 'I...didn't know what to do.'
Our guts appear to be similar. I'm not sure why we're arguing any more. Impressions of Amanda and Raffaele have often seemed important and worth arguing over. "Honors student" etc... etc... etc... At some point one has to look at them and think "I think they could have done this". Perhaps our impressions of them are important in that regard.
 
Last edited:
Some people believe her explanation in her "gift" for what she said at the police station isn't absolutely truthful. My recollection is that in court she pretty much stands by what she wrote - she certainly doesn't say anything like RoseMontague's explanation. If the "gift" strikes people as her avoiding giving a straightforward account of herself, surely the trial testimony is likely to as well?

I believe she was pretty accurate in terms of her actual testimony other than I don't believe she was "confused", I think she was at the point of agreeing with what the cops suggested as long as it did not incriminate her. This quote is a good example of that and also shows her questioning continued after her 1:45AM statement leading to the 5:45AM statement which is a violation of the law designed to protect suspects from such questioning.

CP: In the interrogation of November 6, 2007, at 5:45, you declared that beforeshe died, you heard Meredith scream. How could you know that Meredith screamed before she was killed? Who told you?

AK: So when I was with the police, they asked if I heard Meredith's scream. I said no. They said "But if you were there, how could you not hear her scream? If you were there?" I said "Look, I don't know, maybe I had my ears covered." So they said "Fine, we'll write that down. Fine."
 
Some people believe her explanation in her "gift" for what she said at the police station isn't absolutely truthful. My recollection is that in court she pretty much stands by what she wrote - she certainly doesn't say anything like RoseMontague's explanation. If the "gift" strikes people as her avoiding giving a straightforward account of herself, surely the trial testimony is likely to as well?

Yes, she's describing the events in more detail but she's consistent with all she wrote and said before.

I don't doubt some people believe she's lying but her giving another answer then they would like to hear is not the same as avoidance or evasion. I don't see in her account anything inconsistent or anything that is undermined by some other facts.
 
the new report and mixed DNA evidence

This is that objective opinion, and (having just finished reading it!) it's devastating to the prosecution case. Not only knife and bra clasp either; I can't imagine how the court can take the 'mixed DNA' evidence in the bathroom (for example) seriously after reading the report.
katy_did,

What makes you think that it will have an impact on the mixed DNA, the issues surrounding collection technique?
 
Yes, she's describing the events in more detail but she's consistent with all she wrote and said before.

I don't doubt some people believe she's lying but her giving another answer then they would like to hear is not the same as avoidance or evasion. I don't see in her account anything inconsistent or anything that is undermined by some other facts.
I could debate you on this, but it's been debated many times before. You've probably done this topic a few times as well. I'm tired and and going to call it a day.
 
Platonov

Maybe you can help, has the court appointed experts report been formerly released early?

I am not sure but it is my understanding that the report was filed and once filed was available to the media as a public document. July 25th is the scheduled hearing date for the experts to testify about their report and answer questions about it. I am sure Mignini and Maresca will try to tear the experts and their report apart then (good luck!). I hope HFCB will be called to "defend" her work - my money would be on the defense destroying her while the prosecution and Maresca hardly land a glove on C & V.
 
Our guts appear to be similar. I'm not sure why we're arguing any more. Impressions of Amanda and Raffaele have often seemed important and worth arguing over. "Honors student" etc... etc... etc... At some point one has to look at them and think "I think they could have done this". Perhaps our impressions of them are important in that regard.

Whether one 'thinks they could have done this' there still needs to be some evidence they did, and also the 'story' of her accusers has to be scrutinized, and the events analyzed to determine what is the real truth of the matter.

The police took two college kids into the backrooms and got stories from both of them that weren't true--demonstrably false and there's no one who would disagree at this point. Raffaele didn't part with Amanda at the town square on the night of the first and he definitely didn't call the carabinieri after the Postal Police arrived. Amanda didn't meet Patrick at the basketball courts around nine and then go to the cottage where he went into a room with Meredith.

How did this happen? I would suggest the evidence indicates it was because the cops blew the interrogation and lied and threatened these college kids until they told them what they wanted to hear. I suspect in the case of Raffaele they took advantage of kid stoned on hash, they messed with his mind until they convinced him he must be mistaken about what night it was and when he called the carabinieri. I think also one can get the impression he just told them what they wanted to hear so they'd go away and bug Amanda about it.

I think the evidence suggests they then mentally and emotionally abused Amanda whilst subjecting her to physical deprivations which eventually caused her to 'buckle and give a version of facts we knew to be correct.' Except of course they weren't 'facts'--and at this point I think that suggests just where those false statements came from. Interrogations are by their very nature designed to change a subject's story, and if they can convince a guilty person to confess and say something that will cause them to spend decades behind bars, they can convince an innocent person to say what they want to hear by virtue of convincing them in myriad ways it's in their best interest to do so--or even that they must be right and a person's own memories incorrect or incomplete.

I don't think the police story stands scrutiny either, these two statements don't in anyway explain the police--who claim they had absolutely nothing else to go on--arresting Patrick and then parading through the streets of Perugia with all three of them with sirens blaring and lights flashing and announcing 'case closed' and then less than 48 hours later with absolutely no physical evidence to back it accusing Amanda of holding down Meredith whilst Raffaele and Patrick raped and murdered her. That 'story' doesn't hold up at all.

I think the cops are lying, Shuttlt, perhaps that is something unbelievable to you, but I do think it happens. The murder is easily explained by Rudy Guede assaulting and murdering Meredith, however the arrests of Patrick, Amanda and Raffaele are not easily explained except by the police making a mistake. If they made an error in the arrests, and the murder shows evidence of no one else, I think it highly unlikely the two kids they scared into submission were actually involved with a totally different person with no actual evidence they were complicit with him either.
 
Last edited:
I think the evidence suggests they then mentally and emotionally abused Amanda whilst subjecting her to physical deprivations which eventually caused her to 'buckle and give a version of facts we knew to be correct.'
This is just the argument about how many hours you count as her being abusively interrogated by the police and whether being denied food and water for a couple of hours counts as abuse and so on.

I think the cops are lying, Shuttlt, perhaps that is something unbelievable to you, but I do think it happens.
It isn't unbelievable to me. I don't think I've been arguing that cops are necessarily truthful, or that they have always been truthful in this case. I thought we were talking about Knox's honesty and we somehow are now arguing about whether the cops are honest. Perhaps I'm getting muddled by the several people I'm talking to at the same time again.
 
Last edited:
I could debate you on this, but it's been debated many times before. You've probably done this topic a few times as well. I'm tired and and going to call it a day.

I understand. The debate usually ends with the conclusion that apart from the two statements she signed during the overnight session there is nothing Amanda said or wrote that could be shown to be untrue. I think we can agree on this and wrap it up with the disclaimer that subjective impressions that she is lying about anything or everything else are allowed but are just impressions.
 
Mary

I fundamentally disagree with your view of what Meredith’s family should or should not do. With the contacts the John Kercher is alleged to have in the UK media he could have waged a PR campaign against Raffaele and Amanda, he has not, he has written 4 or 5 articles since Meredith’s murder; in my opinion he and his family have been exemplary in their behaviour.

What rubbish, first class rubish, Mr Kercher as gone on the money wagon.
Nothing less or nothing more. When the truth comes out, who is he going to sue?
Mareca is fighting for his life at the moment, which is in this forum, Amanda was not there, Raffaele was not there at the time of the murder.
So what has Marerca got to go with it, I will tale you nothing but fresh air.
Nothing do you under stand, NOTHING , but fresh air.
Try looking at the real facts, uuuuuuuuuuuuuum is that to hard.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom