Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[RoseMontague]

Thank you Rose, that worked. An interesting aside, I also found just about every other talking point also includes the word 'ominous.' Methinks Harry lives in a world of ominousness!

Now I have to fumigate it, some of these people don't belong, do they? Harry just made that part up. I don't even recognize some of them, and frankly I don't think Garofano could spell 'DNA,' he's the one who thought big peaks mean recent blood for sure, isn't he? Even he was dubious of the 'murder knife' as I recall.

Which of these actually 'looked at the data and came to the same conclusions?'

"Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti haven’t uttered a single word in public about Dr. Stefanoni’s forensic investigation and findings. They were unable to perform any DNA tests on the knife and bra clasp. They are now looking at the same data as Dr. Renato Biondo, Professor Francesca Torricelli, Luciano Garofano and Professor Giuseppe Novelli. The fact that these independent experts looked at the data and came to the same conclusions as Dr. Stefanoni is ominous for Knox and Sollecito."

Biondo is Steffi's boss and sat at the prosecution's table, IIRC, Torricelli is Maresca's expert, Garofano has no official connection to this case but was co-author of that book, and the last one is the prosecutions expert for this current appeal that has not stated a conclusion as of yet (that I am aware of). TM/HR's claims about these being "independent" is a mendacious claim, in my opinion.

 

[Mairanse]

I just wanted to thank all of the posters (I'm sure you know who you are) who have offered such detailed posts about the DNA report and recent events. I'm still new to this case and while I haven't seen a convincing argument for guilt, my mind is still open as I'm aware I haven't considered all of the available information.

I did want to agree with the notion that this case seems to be in many ways the perfect storm in terms of a case that would result in wrongful arrest. I think it's becoming more clear that there was substantial police misconduct in this case. At the same time a lot of their conclusions early on are easily attributable to what was known at the time.

Sollecito collected knives, Amanda had a mop, The Lumumba text, AK and RS alerted police to the body, the call to Police, etc. All of this led police down a reasonable albeit incorrect path. If just one thing about that night had been different such as RS ended up taking his friend to pick up the bag, thus giving him an alibi, none of this would have happened. The perfect storm indeed.

That being said, as far as the evidence I've seen so far, I also agree that it should have become clear that RS and AK were innocent when Rudy's involvement came to light.

 

[Kaosium]

That's really a minor point but I hoped some progress had been made.
But just to be clear you are back to the 'shouldn't have been arrested on Nov 6th' argument.
OK. Bassoons it is then.

I was more interested in the fact that you are both still sticking to the CT that the cops had PL in their sights, forced AK to name him and thus they and the translator perjured themselves on the stand.

That's because they did, Platonov. What part of the cupcakes and tea fairy-tale do you find compelling? Last time I asked you weren't even able to come up with the answer to the simple question of what time Monica Napoleoni said she went after Amanda for the second time. What time was it? Why don't you display for all the world to see the police version of the interrogation, with details. Without ever mentioning a single cartwheel!

Can you do that? That's how you discredit a conspiracy theory, you make it obvious to the most casual observer how the 'truth' is much easier to believe and more likely to have occurred. Why don't you tell us all what brilliant policework caused the police in Perugia to decide to arrest Amanda, Patrick and Raffaele and then parade through town with sirens blaring and lights flashing and announce to the world 'case closed' and that Amanda had 'buckled and admitted to a version of facts we knew to be correct.'

That's a CT with absolutely no evidence to back it up no matter how you slice it. Nor has it been even remotely hinted by AK's lawyers or anybody in the real world.

What on earth are you talking about?!

They all got calunnia charges over it! Amanda, two of the lawyers, her parents as well, all for telling the truth about the interrogation! The 'evidence' is the vast 'inconsistencies' in their stories. They misrepresented the number of cops, as revealed by the number eligible for the later calunnia charge, they lied about whether Amanda was called in, as per Giobbi's testimony, and the fact the story they told didn't in any way shape or form resemble a legitimate police interrogation, nor did their actions afterward in any way follow what they told the court happened to produce those worthless statements.

 

[LondonJohn]

Biondo is Steffi's boss and sat at the prosecution's table, IIRC, Torricelli is Maresca's expert, Garofano has no official connection to this case but was co-author of that book, and the last one is the prosecutions expert for this current appeal that has not stated a conclusion as of yet (that I am aware of). TM/HR's claims about these being "independent" is a mendacious claim, in my opinion.

Your contraction of the "world-class" Paatrizia Stefanoni's name to "Steffi", coupled with the fact that I'm watching the Wimbledon ladies' singles match on TV right now, made me think of a new name for our favourite forensic scientist:

"Steffi can't-read-a-Graf"

 

[komponisto]

Your contraction of the "world-class" Paatrizia Stefanoni's name to "Steffi", coupled with the fact that I'm watching the Wimbledon ladies' singles match on TV right now, made me think of a new name for our favourite forensic scientist:

"Steffi can't-read-a-Graf"

That's pretty good.

 

[LondonJohn]

That's because they did, Platonov. What part of the cupcakes and tea fairy-tale do you find compelling? Last time I asked you weren't even able to come up with the answer to the simple question of what time Monica Napoleoni said she went after Amanda for the second time. What time was it? Why don't you display for all the world to see the police version of the interrogation, with details. Without ever mentioning a single cartwheel!

Can you do that? That's how you discredit a conspiracy theory, you make it obvious to the most casual observer how the 'truth' is much easier to believe and more likely to have occurred. Why don't you tell us all what brilliant policework caused the police in Perugia to decide to arrest Amanda, Patrick and Raffaele and then parade through town with sirens blaring and lights flashing and announce to the world 'case closed' and that Amanda had 'buckled and admitted to a version of facts we knew to be correct.'



What on earth are you talking about?!

They all got calunnia charges over it! Amanda, two of the lawyers, her parents as well, all for telling the truth about the interrogation! The 'evidence' is the vast 'inconsistencies' in their stories. They misrepresented the number of cops, as revealed by the number eligible for the later calunnia charge, they lied about whether Amanda was called in, as per Giobbi's testimony, and the fact the story they told didn't in any way shape or form resemble a legitimate police interrogation, nor did their actions afterward in any way follow what they told the court happened to produce those worthless statements.

I chose to opt for the "you're wrong, but whatever" response - quicker and easier, and no less unlikely to attract an incoherent and misrepresentative counter-riposte

 

[platonov]

"Oh my God! I SO can't believe you just said that!"

I chose to opt for the "you're wrong, but whatever" response - quicker and easier, and no less unlikely to attract an incoherent and misrepresentative counter-riposte

Oh, I dont like seeing that big green smiley.

It usually indicates I have upset you somehow.

I shall try to keep an eye on my grammar !

 

[platonov]

Non - denial denials

Changed you opinion how ?

Werent you one of the many posters who claimed or insinuated previously that [among many many other things] the cops planted the evidence on the clasp and knife.

So now its Stefanoni not the cops - Like all good CT's it can be amended as necessary without changing the overall effect.

But on this 'Expert report' - funny how those who railed against 'arguments from authority' suddenly embrace an 'expert opinion' when it seems to suit their argument - do you have an opinion on whether it confirms that RS' profile is on the clasp.

Nope, not Rose.

Rose posted on many occasions her belief there was never any DNA on the knife blade, that it was possibly and in fact quite probably the result of machine contamination from cranking up the ye old knob well past the recommended settings, a machine that had been used in previous testing of Meredith Kercher's DNA.

Nope on the knife it is then.

If you say so - I wont bother looking

 

[Kaosium]

Biondo is Steffi's boss and sat at the prosecution's table, IIRC, Torricelli is Maresca's expert, Garofano has no official connection to this case but was co-author of that book, and the last one is the prosecutions expert for this current appeal that has not stated a conclusion as of yet (that I am aware of). TM/HR's claims about these being "independent" is a mendacious claim,[/hilte] in my opinion.

Nooooooooo!!! Mendacity from Harry Rag? I can't believe it possible! However, I don't think Harry realizes what damage that can do. As a matter of fact, my first entry to this debate almost wasn't at JREF. I'd come back, done my required reading, and was just googling through aimlessly hitting on Harry's ubiquitous presence on comments pages. It soon occurred to me, thanks in part to you and Mary H, that Harry was saying things that weren't true and had to know it as it had been explained in great detail, thus there was no way it could have been a mistake. I just flipped back and forth between them to make sure, and at this point it occurred to me it was possible Harry Rag must realize the case was crap and Amanda and Raffaele would go free, but was just fighting it out to the bitter end due to the implacability so common in internet debates. Thus I started composing a satirical but friendly treatise imploring Harry Rag to desert the dark emperor and reclaim balance by embracing the light side of the force! I demurred as I figured everyone would think me crazy if it was my first post. Shortly thereafter I started wondering if Harry Rag was crazy, but I think I eventually figured it out. However as for how it can hurt the cause, when I was going through it again in mid-October (mind you probably not reading in any sort of chronological order) Harry Rag was one of the few to bring the 'murder knife' and the bra clasp up on a regular basis, and the Dark Side ( ) didn't want people looking into that. At first I couldn't believe all the rebuttals given by you and Mary could possibly be true, it couldn't have been that bad or...well I had to find out. I looked into it pretty thoroughly and to this day I just don't comprehend how some people could just ignore what the implications of those two items were. They were evidence all right--against the prosecution for ever presenting them in court!

 

[platonov]

Nooooooooo!!! Mendacity from Harry Rag? I can't believe it possible!

<snip>

However as for how it can hurt the cause, when I was going through it again in mid-October (mind you probably not reading in any sort of chronological order) Harry Rag was one of the few still regularly bring the 'murder knife' and the bra clasp up on a regular basis, and the Dark Side ( ) didn't want people looking into that. At first I couldn't believe all the rebuttals given by you and Mary could possibly be true, it couldn't have been that bad or...well I had to find out. I looked into it pretty thoroughly and to this day I just don't comprehend how some people could just ignore what the implications of those two items were. They were evidence all right--against the prosecution for ever presenting them in court!

Really

If only you were here ?? when sneezing, dandruff, bra sharing, door handles, flying DNA, borrowed pillows, Amanda's lamp etc etc etc were being put forward as reasons for the bra clasp result.

 

[RoseMontague]

The Expert report has changed my opinion on this case. For anyone who cares feel free to call me a Conspiracy Theorist. In my opinion, the report clearly shows Stefanoni attempted to conceal and obfuscate the truth in order to support a conviction based on her reported results. I do not believe this can be explained by incompetence, poor documentation, or simple confirmation bias.

Changed you opinion how ?

Werent you one of the many posters who claimed or insinuated previously that [among many many other things] the cops planted the evidence on the clasp and knife.

So now its Stefanoni not the cops - Like all good CT's it can be amended as necessary without changing the overall effect.

But on this 'Expert report' - funny how those who railed against 'arguments from authority' suddenly embrace an 'expert opinion' when it seems to suit their argument - do you have an opinion on whether it confirms that RS' profile is on the clasp.

Nope on the knife it is then.

If you say so - I wont bother looking

Whew, that is a relief!!

Which way to the CT forum? ⊕

 

[Poppy1016]

Hi Platonov,
I was wondering if the new DNA evidence has given you even the slightest amount of doubt. I know we have to wait until it all plays out in court, but the report seems pretty strong on the surface.

 

[RoseMontague]

Really

If only you were here ?? when sneezing, dandruff, bra sharing, door handles, flying DNA, borrowed pillows, Amanda's lamp etc etc etc were being put forward as reasons for the bra clasp result.

Oh My! Can I select more than one? I really like the lamp conspiracy theory.
I did not know it was connected to the bra clasp DNA, but I am sure it will come to me.

 

[platonov]

Oh My! Can I select more than one? I really like the lamp conspiracy theory.
I did not know it was connected to the bra clasp DNA, but I am sure it will come to me.

It most certainly was and mentioned more than once I think

Around the same time that several posters claimed that unless 'we' or 'they' could explain exactly how RS cut off the bra then it didnt count !!

This thread contains at least 14* of the 20 dumbest arguments I have ever heard - I dont always remember the authors but the 'ideas' are hard to forget !

* Note - numbers may be made up.

ETA Petty sure Antony argued for this 'idea'

 

[Dan O.]

Rose, did you miss that? The bra clasp was found again under the cord of Amanda's lamp. The squid squad didn't like that so they put it down and filmed it being picked up in a cleared part of the floor. To see this maneuver caught on tape makes me wonder what else they moved or altered while the camera wasn't rolling.

 

[platonov]

Speaking of dumb arguments

Rose, did you miss that? The bra clasp was found again under the cord of Amanda's lamp. The squid squad didn't like that so they put it down and filmed it being picked up in a cleared part of the floor. To see this maneuver caught on tape makes me wonder what else they moved or altered while the camera wasn't rolling.

Really.

But the tape was faked Dan O so it doesn't count

 

[Poppy1016]

Thank you for the reply !

 

[RoseMontague]

Rose, did you miss that? The bra clasp was found again under the cord of Amanda's lamp. The squid squad didn't like that so they put it down and filmed it being picked up in a cleared part of the floor. To see this maneuver caught on tape makes me wonder what else they moved or altered while the camera wasn't rolling.

Sacrebleu!!!

Hercule will be very disappointed in me for missing this one. My tinfoil hat is so large it sometimes covers my eyes.

↔ ↕ ⌂

 

[Chris C]

Really

If only you were here ?? when sneezing, dandruff, bra sharing, door handles, flying DNA, borrowed pillows, Amanda's lamp etc etc etc were being put forward as reasons for the bra clasp result.

What bra clasp result? I've stated and so has a few actual dna experts on numerous occasions that sollecito's profile wasn't present on the clasp. The ole argument was the Y halotype was Sollecito's. Ooops what y halotype. Seems Stefanoni fudged that part.

 

[Kaosium]

Really

If only you were here ?? when sneezing, dandruff, bra sharing, door handles, flying DNA, borrowed pillows, Amanda's lamp etc etc etc were being put forward as reasons for the bra clasp result.

Really!

One of my first posts to Some Alibi:

"The knife and the clasp come across more as evidence against the prosecution than either of the two in jail"

In my first post I worded it more conservatively, but I basically meant the same thing. I put it something to the effect of: 'Those two might be evidence of something, but a smoking gun tying them to the murder site they are not.'

You see, while I rolled my eyes and scrolled past all the posts regarding whether an athletic kid like Rudy could climb into that window, (although I did enjoy 'two girls one bra') I came across this at some point during the debate, probably one of Halides posts, or perhaps I googled it I don't recall. Considering the current status of the debate you might find it very interesting. Or maybe not. Perhaps like me you'll find it an incitement to violent self-mutilation with dangers of incipient suicide, however it was very useful for trying to figure out what was being contended about Stefanoni's work.