General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[The Fool]

So, you want external forces to impose a solution (ie, force it, whether the recipients want it or not), backed up by military support to ensure that this unwanted solution is, indeed, forced upon those unwilling recipients. How, exactly, is this not a "violent military solution"? Do you imagine that this UN-led military will force this "externally-led imposed solution" on both Israel and the Palestinians without violence?

And if it's not the best solution in your mind, why do you think this obviously violent military solution should be carried out with some degree of immanency, as implied by your use of the words "it is time"?

so you are saying that all UN intervention is a "violent military solution"? If part of a solution saw a UN peacekeeping force...this is a "violent military solution"?

Of course any international imposed solution is less than the best solution. The best solution is where the parties concerned come up with and adhere to an agreed solution.

Can I ask you that if The Israelis and Palestinians forever fail to work out a solution then the International community should just accept that and standback and watch the current clusterF&%& continue indefinitely?

 

[The Fool]

So you advocate a non-violent, "imposed solution" with "Military support under the UN" but know that it is not the best idea.
Clear as mud.

tried my best to keep my explanation simple....I may have not been able to get it simple enough and may have allowed it to be misinterpretable if my words are substituted with others.

 

[A'isha]

so you are saying that all UN intervention is a "violent military solution"? If part of a solution saw a UN peacekeeping force...this is a "violent military solution"?

Of course any international imposed solution is less than the best solution. The best solution is where the parties concerned come up with and adhere to an agreed solution.

If the parties won't come up with and adhere to an agreed solution, just what do you think your "UN peacekeeping force" will do to force a solution? Israel has a full-on military of its own, you know.

So go ahead. Detail your proposed plan of action for your UN "peacekeepers" when the Knesset and the Prime Minister say "hell no" and mobilize the IDF. And then take into account how the Palestinians might react to having a solution they reject being forced on them by a Western military.

Can I ask you that if The Israelis and Palestinians forever fail to work out a solution then the International community should just accept that and standback and watch the current clusterF&%& continue indefinitely?

Yes. Because no "imposed" solution will ever work. The Israelis and Palestinians have to agree on something that they both will voluntarily adhere to, or all your UN peacekeepers will do is spend time killing some people on both sides until the US and EU get sick of it and pull their troops out, and then we're right back where we started. Scratch that...we're worse off than where we started.

 

[The Fool]

If the parties won't come up with and adhere to an agreed solution, just what do you think your "UN peacekeeping force" will do to force a solution? Israel has a full-on military of its own, you know.

So go ahead. Detail your proposed plan of action for your UN "peacekeepers" when the Knesset and the Prime Minister say "hell no" and mobilize the IDF. And then take into account how the Palestinians might react to having a solution they reject being forced on them by a Western military.



Yes. Because no "imposed" solution will ever work. The Israelis and Palestinians have to agree on something that they both will voluntarily adhere to, or all your UN peacekeepers will do is spend time killing some people on both sides until the US and EU get sick of it and pull their troops out, and then we're right back where we started. Scratch that...we're worse off than where we started.

ok...thats your opinion. I accept that. But you are still playing word substitution. I have never said that a UN peacekeeping force will force a solution....they are there to observe and monitor....as they normally do when in a peacekeeping role.

what I can't sign up to is the rule that as long as Israel or Hamas says no....do nothing. Which appears to be the opinion a lot of people have welded on.

can you guys use your imagination ? An imposed solution doesn't have to use bombs as the big stick....economics can be used too. International courts can be used too. Diplomact and popular opinion can be used too.

If (as an example) a UN force moved into palestine. Imposed the borders of palestine and installed an interim Government leading to the declaration of a palestinian state.. Are you seriously suggesting Israel would attack this UN force?

 

[WildCat]

ok...thats your opinion. I accept that. But you are still playing word substitution. I have never said that a UN peacekeeping force will force a solution....they are there to observe and monitor....as they normally do when in a peacekeeping role.

What are they "observing and monitoring"? And from where?

 

[bikerdruid]

Obama is obviously a Zionist.

seems to come with his office.
the american government is decidedly right wing zionist.

 

[JohnnyG]

tried my best to keep my explanation simple....I may have not been able to get it simple enough and may have allowed it to be misinterpretable if my words are substituted with others.

Given that the actual words you chose conjure up an image of a UN military armed with nerf bullets and suction cup arrows (not violent, remember?) trying to enforce the location of a border in the middle of a war zone, I think you need to move on to your "best" solution and try again.

 

[The Fool]

Given that the actual words you chose conjure up an image of a UN military armed with nerf bullets and suction cup arrows (not violent, remember?) trying to enforce the location of a border in the middle of a war zone, I think you need to move on to your "best" solution and try again.

I have little or no control on what Images you "conjure up" Is this a word association psychanalysis session?

 

[The Fool]

What are they "observing and monitoring"? And from where?

ask the UN, they are the ones that run the peacekeeping actions. But my thoughts are they would be observing and monitoring compliance on such things as ....not shooting at each other....that sort of thing. Probably from the palestinian side because I doubt if Israel would allow UN troops in Israel......thats if you can get a statement from them of where Israel actually is.....which is the point of possibly having to impose borders even if they are subject to change in the future.

whats your suggestion for what to do if agreement continues to not happen?

 

[HoverBoarder]

ok...thats your opinion. I accept that. But you are still playing word substitution. I have never said that a UN peacekeeping force will force a solution....they are there to observe and monitor....as they normally do when in a peacekeeping role.

what I can't sign up to is the rule that as long as Israel or Hamas says no....do nothing. Which appears to be the opinion a lot of people have welded on.

can you guys use your imagination ? An imposed solution doesn't have to use bombs as the big stick....economics can be used too. International courts can be used too. Diplomact and popular opinion can be used too.

If (as an example) a UN force moved into palestine. Imposed the borders of palestine and installed an interim Government leading to the declaration of a palestinian state.. Are you seriously suggesting Israel would attack this UN force?

Given that the actual words you chose conjure up an image of a UN military armed with nerf bullets and suction cup arrows (not violent, remember?) trying to enforce the location of a border in the middle of a war zone, I think you need to move on to your "best" solution and try again.

I have little or no control on what Images you "conjure up" Is this a word association psychanalysis session?

Come on, it was pretty funny .

Plus based on your description, you would be imposing a solution that neither side would accept, and you would have violence from both sides. Almost definitely not the Israeli military, but it is almost a given that pissed off Israeli settlers and pissed off Palestinians would resort to violence in response to an imposed outside solution.

Your options for "observing and monitoring" with the UN military force while dealing with problems economically (bribes), with International Courts (jailing those who disagree with you), and diplomacy (forced outside pressure) would just further inflame the situation.


I do think that it is very good that you are talking about possible solution to this problem. As that has been seriously lacking in this thread, and all other discussion of the Israeli Palestinian problem, but there are major problems with the solution that you gave, and it would make a bad situation much worse than it already is.

However, it is very good that you made a suggestion for a solution even if I do not agree with it.

I would really like to have this thread include much more discussion on ideas for solutions, and much more analysis of the solutions that are being considered now.

 

[Skeptic]

So, you want external forces to impose a solution (ie, force it, whether the recipients want it or not), backed up by military support to ensure that this unwanted solution is, indeed, forced upon those unwilling recipients. How, exactly, is this not a "violent military solution"?

Because the violence and threats by the military will be directed against the Jews, and since when is that REAL violence? It's just "resistance" or "demanding human rights" or whatever euphemism is used this week.

 

[The Fool]

Come on, it was pretty funny .

Plus based on your description, you would be imposing a solution that neither side would accept, and you would have violence from both sides. Almost definitely not the Israeli military, but it is almost a given that pissed off Israeli settlers and pissed off Palestinians would resort to violence in response to an imposed outside solution.

Your options for "observing and monitoring" with the UN military force while dealing with problems economically (bribes), with International Courts (jailing those who disagree with you), and diplomacy (forced outside pressure) would just further inflame the situation.


I do think that it is very good that you are talking about possible solution to this problem. As that has been seriously lacking in this thread, and all other discussion of the Israeli Palestinian problem, but there are major problems with the solution that you gave, and it would make a bad situation much worse than it already is.

However, it is very good that you made a suggestion for a solution even if I do not agree with it.

I would really like to have this thread include much more discussion on ideas for solutions, and much more analysis of the solutions that are being considered now.

If your premise is going to be that it wouldn't be accepted I think you should understand what it is that you believe wouldn't be accepted. Many things can be accepted if the upside exceeds the downside.

 

[The Fool]

Because the violence and threats by the military will be directed against the Jews, and since when is that REAL violence? It's just "resistance" or "demanding human rights" or whatever euphemism is used this week.

Skeptic, can we agree that the random rocket and mortar fire should be ended? That is the sort of thing I am talking about when I say Military support. As there is no rocket or mortar fire coming out of Israel I don't see how a UN force in Israel would be needed.


also. Can we either discuss Israel, or "the jews" but resist interchanging the terms?

 

[Virus]

Anyone interested in George Galloway being ridiculed on TV by bringing up all the dumb stuff he said? Cos that just happened.

He believes in a one-state solution. Jews and Islamic radicals living together in peace.

 

[IDB87]

Given that the actual words you chose conjure up an image of a UN military armed with nerf bullets and suction cup arrows (not violent, remember?)

I got shot in the eyeball with one of those suction cup arrows. Knowing I was up against an army with those would be enough for me to surrender.

 

[WildCat]

ask the UN

No, I'm asking you since this is your proposal and not the UN's.

 

[WildCat]

Anyone interested in George Galloway being ridiculed on TV by bringing up all the dumb stuff he said? Cos that just happened.

He believes in a one-state solution. Jews and Islamic radicals living together in peace.

Galloway: More fool me...
Interviewer: Alright we'll leave it on that then.



What a tool Galloway is.

 

[Skeptic]

Skeptic, can we agree that the random rocket and mortar fire should be ended?

I can agree with that, but apparently you cannot; when Israel was attacked daily with such rockets and mortars, for years, you were as silent as the grave about it. Only when Israel struck back in operation "cast led" you went ballistic (no pun intended) over such "disproportionate reaction".

So it seems to me, from your long record, that you do not consider random mortar and rocket fire -- so long as the victims are Jews -- to matter much.

Also, this is the same UN that so bravely and efficiently is stopping Hizbullah from rearming, right?

 

[Stout]

Lordy lordy

It looks like more intrigue with the freedom flotilla. The luxury yacht Saoirse won't be joining the blockade running gang this year. Silly activists didn't they learn to guard their ships after the first one was sabotaged?

That's got to be a kick in the face to the starving Gazans, having their meager aid delivered in a mega yacht.

Whoo-ee, whoo-ee baby Won't you let me take you on a sea cruise ?

Source

 

[The Fool]

I can agree with that, but apparently you cannot; when Israel was attacked daily with such rockets and mortars, for years, you were as silent as the grave about it.

when you lie like this do you actually believe it yourself?

So it seems to me, from your long record, that you do not consider random mortar and rocket fire -- so long as the victims are Jews -- to matter much.

and after you are finished making stuff up and attributing it to others comes the standard racism slur.....you are sooooo predictable.