Merged Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth - (Part 2)

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I don't have time right now for your long Greek language analysis post and "your" personal translation.
I'll translate this for the lurkers: "I, DOC, have no ****** clue of the (Koine) Greek language. I have not learned it, I am not even interested in learning the original language of my Holy Book. I just copy-pasted some second-hand sources claiming Heichelheim and Geisler gave an interpretation of that sentence differing from any Bible or NT translation commonly read, and I am too lazy to even search and find their original arguments for their unbelievable translation".

You've had plenty of time to come up with something since I first challenged you apologists on this.
And I assume your saying Luke got it wrong because of what Josephus wrote 90 years after the fact. Let me ask you this, do you believe Josephus was right when he said Moses lived in Egypt and was a general there. If you believe he got it wrong then you are basing your belief that Luke got it wrong based on Josephus, whom you believe got some other history wrong.
My evidence is not restricted to Josephus. Luke actually had it right that Quirinius organized a census; the Lapis Venetus proves it. As to the timing of Quirinius tenure as governor, let's first look at that of Varus. He was governor of Syria when Herod died, per Tacitus:
On Herod's death, one Simon, without waiting for the approbation of the Emperor, usurped the title of king. He was punished by Quintilius Varus then governor of Syria, and the nation, with its liberties curtailed, was divided into three provinces under the sons of Herod.
As you see, Tacitus also mentions that after Herod's death, one of his sons - Archelaus - was installed as king of Judea. So there could be no Roman census until after Archelaus was deposed. And actually, we have another source for Archelaus' succession of Herod in Judea, one you cannot refute: Matthew mentions him in the story of the flight to Egypt, or rather, the return.
 
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HollyDOC.jpg
 
Pharaoh,
You seem to be hinting at something, could you be more specific?


I found myself involved in a couple of other threads where part of the argument depends on evidence that the bible - particularly the gospel attributed to John - is true, and a friend told me that this was the go-to place for such evidence.

I was told that I should approach the thread wearing my favourite red shoes, knock my heels together three times and invoke the name of the Wizard.

I was quite taken aback when you suddenly appeared. Are you the Wizard?

This sure doesn't look like Kansas.
 
/me looks around shiftly

Me...the Wizzard? >kaf< Why no. No, I'm not. And I'll thank you to keep those kinds of accusations to yourself, young man.


So, any new evidences coming our way? He did say he'd be back after a 10 day sojourn into the wilderness or somesuch, yes?
 
Note that ddt did not specify which direction the conversions were in. ;)
Spot on! I remember that one or two posters/lurkers in the "Evidence" thread had written that through DOC's writings they had converted from Christianity. :D
 
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."

Issac Asimov.
 
Spot on! I remember that one or two posters/lurkers in the "Evidence" thread had written that through DOC's writings they had converted from Christianity. :D

I think one of them may have been me...

I certainly thank DOC, Edge, Ali, Paul Bethke - to name but a few - for helping me "come out" about my Atheism!
 
I wear my atheist hat every Sunday outside the local church. :D
 
Still waiting for an answer, DOC:
Or there simply could have been a Palestine census at exactly the time Luke reported and Quirinius could have been an official at that time. Rulers and politicians do hold more than one office in their lifetime. This census was around 4 BC. Josephus wasn't even born then and he didn't write about this time period until about 91 AD. Also Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD so its not like there would be a lot of census records laying around (for Joshephus to read) of something that happened 95 years ago.
First of all, the text does not support that. You have brought in Heichelheim and Geisler claiming that, but you have not given any argumentation why their claims are valid. Let's go over that 9-word sentence of Luke 2:2 again:
αὑτη ἡ ἀπογραφη πρωτη ἐγενετο ἡγεμονευοντος της Συριας Κυρηνιου
Now, let's break down that sentence.

It's subject is αὑτη ἡ ἀπογραφη - "that census". The word αὑτη is a demonstrative pronoun ("that"), and refers back to the previous verse where it said that Augustus ordered a census. The word ἡ is the definite article (which is usual in Greek in this construct but obviously not translated in English). Lastly, ἀπογραφη means census; it's a feminine word; as it's the subject, it's in the nominative; and it's singular;. The words αὑτη and ἡ are inflected to agree with that.

The verb is ἐγενετο. It's the aorist indicative, 3rd person singular of γιγνομαι - to become, to be, to happen (cf. the English word Genesis). It acts here as a copula.

Then the word we've skipped: πρωτη. That is a superlative of an adjective that has no positive grade, and means "first" or "earliest". A Greek superlative may also be translated as "very ...", so "very early" would also be possible. It's inflected in the nominative singular feminine, and so it's the predicate of the copula.

Then the last four words: ἡγεμονευοντος της Συριας Κυρηνιου. They are a genitive absolute construction. The word ἡγεμονευοντος is the genitive singular masculine of the present participle of ἡγεμονευω, "to rule", "to govern", so literally it means "ruling". This verb happens to have its direct object in the genitive case too; that object is της Συριας, i.e., Syria (της is the genitive singular feminine of the definite article "the"). The last word, Κυρηνιου, is the genitive singular of Κυρηνιος, the Greek transcription of the name Quirinius. So the whole construct means "Quirinius ruling over Syria". A genitive absolute construct is called "absolute" because it stands "loose", it is independent grammatically, of the rest of the sentence. It is typically translated as a subordinate clause, with simply a temporal relation ("while", "when") or a causal relation ("because") or a concessive relation ("although") or whatever the translator deems appropriate. The fact that the participle employed here is a present participle means that the action in the genitive absolute construction is contemporaneous with the action in the main clause.

So, all in all, my translation is: "This census was the first, while Quirinius ruled over Syria".

Now, I don't see any mention in this sentence of two censuses as your favourite apologists contend, but I'll give you some rope to hang yourself with. Some scholars claim that the NT writers now and then employed a superlative (here: πρωτη, "earliest") when they actually meant a comparative (which would be προτερη, "earlier"). In case of a comparative there has to be a thing you compare it with, say: "Peter is taller than Paul". You can't just say "Peter is taller". That (the italicized part) can be expressed in two ways in Greek: (1) the word ἠ stands for "than" and the actual thing is in the same case as the thing we compare it with, or (2) the thing we compare it with is put in the genitive case.

Now, obviously the word ἠ is absent; and the genitive construction doesn't work either IMHO: firstly, the verb ἐγενετο is placed in between which makes this unlikely to have been the idea (Greek word order is not that free); and secondly, the genitives are there for a genitive absolute, not for a comparative.

And even if you were able to convince me of such a translation, there are also historical reasons why this doesn't work.

A census in Judea around 4 BC is right out, for several reasons. Herod reigned over Judea, and the finances of Judea was not the Romans' worry. They had an agreement with Herod how much tax he had to turn over and it was his business how to get that. There was no need for the Romans to mandate he conduct a census, and still, then it would have been Herod's census and not Quirinius' c.q. Augustus' census.

Varus was the governor over Syria in the last years of Herod's reign. Even in your fantastic scenario of a Roman census in that time, Quirinius would have been a subordinate. The Greek text of Luke 2:2 however is very clear:
ἡγεμονευοντος της Συριας Κυρηνιου
which means "while Quirinius reigned over Syria". The use of the verb ἡγεμονεω leaves open a subordinate position, however, της Συριας is a direct object (in the genitive) and precludes anything but him being the boss - otherwise, Luke would have written ἐν τῃ Συριᾳ ("in Syria"). But we're here already in the realm of fantasy, as noted above.

But to put your last fantastical delusions to an end: if you're going to argue Quirinius may have been governor of Syria after Varus, then this is the first instance we know that the same man had been governor twice of the same Roman province. Surely Josephus, Tacitus or any other Roman historian would have told us.

Also if Luke wanted to make up a story of how Joseph and Mary got to Bethlehem why make up a story that can be challenged by all the people of that time (that doesn't make sense). Why not just make up a story that can't be challenged. He could say something like the dead Joseph wanted to visit his hometown, or he wanted to have the child in the place he was born. Why go through all the trouble of bringing in historical people and events into made up story where it can be challenged, that doesn't make sense to do that.
Your posts here are a testament to the gullibility of the general populace to take any story they're told at face value. Skeptics who critically engage a story were in the minority then as well as now. Most of Luke's readers were not in the position to challenge the story. They didn't have Wikipedia to look up that there's actually a gap of 10 years between Herod's death and Quirinius' tenure. They couldn't check the claim that Joseph had to travel for a census. However, there's a definite advantage to Luke's story - from a Christian perspective. After the Jewish Revolt, Jews were looked upon with suspicion by Romans. The early Christians had to disambiguate their cult from the Jews. There also was the story (per Josephus) of the revolt of Judas the Galilee as a reaction to Quirinius' census. Having Joseph be an obedient Roman subject, willing to make an arduous journey with his highly pregnant wife paints Christians as law-abiding Roman subjects from the outset.
 
Spot on! I remember that one or two posters/lurkers in the "Evidence" thread had written that through DOC's writings they had converted from Christianity. :D

Well, while I was already not believing in any God when I came here, I can honestly say that I hadn't given all that much thought to a lot of problems with the Bible until people started trotting out passages and I started to look them up. I had read the whole Bible before once, but it's kinda funny, by the time you get to John you forget what details Matthew said or what's actually in those prophets quoted, and just assume that it all fits. Or I knew that there were some nasty parts in there, but it took several re-reads and putting it into context for it to really sink in how vile that book is, or how utter schizophrenic nonsense it can be at times.

Though in all fairness, it's not just the theists I have to thank. Some of the best stuff came from Tim for example.
 
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