Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[LemmyCaution]

The point is that lies were being told.

This will be believer bingo#1.

The point is that historians sift out the lies (and errors, exaggerations, miscues) by comparing statements to documents, to other statements, to other forms of evidence, etc. You should read Joachim Neander's deconstruction of the Zisblatt book for an elementary lesson in how this is done and why it matters. It's at Holocaust Controversies: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2010/01/irene-zisblatt-diamond-girl-fact-or.html

 

[SanityGap]

There are pictures of the aftermath and probably tons of documents related to it.

Just as we have for the Holocaust.

 

[LemmyCaution]

RODOH is a forum started by someone called Scott Smith for conventional historians, holocaust deniers and members of the public to debate various aspects of the Holocaust. You will notice that many members of RODOH also post in this JREF subforum. I have no idea who moderates this forum. It is my understanding that Scott Smith is a holocaust denier.

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/forums/60/Holocaust-Genocide-Discussion-and-Debate

You should also be aware of the Holocaust Controversies forum.

http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/

Scott Smith is a Holocaust denier who departed Codoh (as I understand because of its moderation practices) and established his forum dedicated to debate about the Holocaust, and related (and even a few unrelated) topics, welcoming and not censoring non-deniers as well as deniers.

Rodoh is currently unmoderated (the last of its moderators, NexGen586 stopped moderating several months ago). Smith's forum has always been dedicated to his notion of free speech, and thus even when moderated, Rodoh was far less restrictive than one forum that fancies itself "serious" and thus curtails free expression, disappearing offending posts, etc., and another, Codoh, that is outright Stalinist in its moderation policies.

A number of Rodoh regulars formed and maintain Holocaust Controversies, which is decidedly NOT a denier blog -- http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/ -- and HC forum as well, although to call activity there modest would be to exaggerate its volume. Most, but not all, of these folks no longer post at Rodoh, which has seen a significant dropoff in activity and numbers in the past half year.

I am among those who post both here, despite the restrictive nature of the rules and moderation, and at Rodoh, where I post as KentFord9. (Alas, I am still posting here despite the rather bizarre welcome I received from some members when I joined the discussion, including a prediction, and wish, that I wouldn't last long and advice that I model myself after something called Telltale Tom. Oh well.)

Rodoh allows individual threads on different topics, along with allowing members to say what they really think in the ways they want to say it.

To state it again, for Clayton Moore's benefit, if he doesn't believe that what I posted here actually was posted at Rodoh by deniers, I dare him to journey to Rodoh and have a look.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Just as we have for the Holocaust.

These people don't even seem to have read basic works like Hilberg, Longerich, or Friedlander, let alone monographs or specialized studies. Their failure on this score doesn't stop them from 1) claiming that the basic works, as a totality, need revision, 2) boasting that they have the answers (then running and hiding when challenged), and 3) showcasing their ignorance and arrogance in a handful of poorly attended Internet forums. One would think that a sine qua non of being a revisionist historian would be a deep knowledge of the basic history; in the case of denial, one would think wrong, as these folks are more interested in ideology and hatred of Jews than they are in enriching the historical narratives. Those with a deep knowledge of the scholarship and sources, and having learned the methods of historical study, all seem to be on the "other side" from deniers. Shocking but true.

 

[Kevin.Silbstedt]

Then it does not actually say it is a reconstruction, does it?

So if I can't actually read what it says, it doesn't say, that it's a reconstuction? THAT is stupid.

Again, this thing shows us the gas chamber in its original state and in it's state today. What the hell should it tell us then Sherlock?

The picture says on the left "ground plan in 1942" and on the right "groundplan today" or in other words: The Krema I today, is not same as back in the days, when they used the "Leichenkeller" as a gas chamber.

The hoax was revealed by David Cole in the early 90s.

You know, that this was 20 years ago? And you know, that Pressac wrote this in his book already in 1989. Looks like Cole didn't care to read the actual literature. And again: Cole is not a holocaust denier anymore.

Regardless of van Pelt's comments the hoax gas chamber is perfectly absurd, with unsealed wooden office doors and a large plate glass window. The observation that persons can be shown this room and told it was a homicidal gas chamber and believe it is a profound comment on human stupidity and gullibility

Yeah, to bad, that this room functioned as a gas chamber, which is proven not only by eyewitness testimony, but also by the Institute of Forensic Research in Cracow and even by your crackpot heros like Leuchter, who also found cyanid residues in this room.

This was a gas chamber and just because its doors today don't fit that pupose, doesn't change the fact that others doors back then worked perfectly fine when it was used as a gas chamber.

There is only one incontrovertible piece of real physical evidence for the holohoax, and that is the chutes in the Auschwitz hoax gas chamber.

You really suck at this. A Photo of the roof of Krema I, taken before the reconstruction, shows the places of the original chutes:

And Piper also mentioned in his interview with Cole, that they found these spots. But hey, lets ignore all this, who cares for honesty...

That is, there are no bodies showing signs of gas poisoning, no mass graves, no 'gas chambers' that don't have other possible uses, i.e., that aren't fumigation rooms or shower rooms.

Wow, well if no evidence means, that something doesn't exist, you seem to have no brain. And because we have not found every missing link as a fossil, evolution is hoax too.
Stop making arguments from the lack of evidence, that is just stupid.

The bodies were burned, so you don't know if they showed signs of gas poisoning. So stop pretending you would know.

Mass graves were found in other death camps like Sobibor and this was already shown to you a thousand *********** times in other threads. In Auschwitz-Birkenau for example, the victims were burned to ashes and thrown in the swamps or rivers nearby. So it's not surprising, that you don't find any mass graves here.

And no shower room or delousing chamber needs a gas tight door, shower heads and has cyanid residues in its walls. You guys DON'T have any explainations for the functions of these rooms.

And not only, that your stupid fantasies don't make any sense, if we look at the evidence. You also don't have evidence for it. What a coincidence.

 

[Saggy]

I ran out of holocaust deniers on the Skeptic Society anti-holocaust denial sub forum a couple of months ago.

Was David kicked out? The Skeptic forum kicks out hoax deniers, I saw 3 or 4 get the boot before they got around to me. But last time I checked David was still putting the usual whooping on you.

I am amazed that there are knowledgeable hoax deniers, far more knowledgeable than me, who frequent these forums. David was one of the best.

 

[Saggy]

So if I can't actually read what it says, it doesn't say, that it's a reconstuction? THAT is stupid.

Again, this thing shows us the gas chamber in its original state and in it's state today. What the hell should it tell us then Sherlock?

The picture says on the left "ground plan in 1942" and on the right "groundplan today" or in other words: The Krema I today, is not same as back in the days, when they used the "Leichenkeller" as a gas chamber.



You know, that this was 20 years ago? And you know, that Pressac wrote this in his book already in 1989. Looks like Cole didn't care to read the actual literature. And again: Cole is not a holocaust denier anymore.



Yeah, to bad, that this room functioned as a gas chamber, which is proven not only by eyewitness testimony, but also by the Institute of Forensic Research in Cracow and even by your crackpot heros like Leuchter, who also found cyanid residues in this room.

This was a gas chamber and just because its doors today don't fit that pupose, doesn't change the fact that others doors back then worked perfectly fine when it was used as a gas chamber.



You really suck at this. A Photo of the roof of Krema I, taken before the reconstruction, shows the places of the original chutes:
[qimg]http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/holes-report/oup-28-lower-final.bmp[/qimg]

And Piper also mentioned in his interview with Cole, that they found these spots. But hey, lets ignore all this, who cares for honesty...



Wow, well if no evidence means, that something doesn't exist, you seem to have no brain. And because we have not found every missing link as a fossil, evolution is hoax too.
Stop making arguments from the lack of evidence, that is just stupid.

The bodies were burned, so you don't know if they showed signs of gas poisoning. So stop pretending you would know.

Mass graves were found in other death camps like Sobibor and this was already shown to you a thousand *********** times in other threads. In Auschwitz-Birkenau for example, the victims were burned to ashes and thrown in the swamps or rivers nearby. So it's not surprising, that you don't find any mass graves here.

And no shower room or delousing chamber needs a gas tight door, shower heads and has cyanid residues in its walls. You guys DON'T have any explainations for the functions of these rooms.

And not only, that your stupid fantasies don't make any sense, if we look at the evidence. You also don't have evidence for it. What a coincidence.

So if I can't actually read what it says,

The sign was put up after Cole exposed the hoax. Read the van Pelt quote above for confirmation of the obvious.

Yeah, to bad, that this room functioned as a gas chamber, which is proven not only by eyewitness testimony,

LOL.

The bodies were burned, so you don't know if they showed signs of gas poisoning.

Four of the hoax 'death camps' did not have crematoriums. The bodies were supposedly buried. Of course, the authorities could excavate now .... but no !

Mass graves were found in other death camps like Sobibor

I'm perfectly happy to accede to this claim, but I expect you to accept that I did find a mass grave in my backyard. Unfortunately, neither the mass grave at Sobibor, or the mass grave in my back yard, has been excavated. But, why sweat these little ... details ?

Stop making arguments from the lack of evidence, that is just stupid.

The joy of being a Zionist, you get to say anything with a straight face, and a chorus of other Zionists and shabbos goys will nod their heads in sage approval.

You guys DON'T have any explainations for the functions of these rooms.

LOL. This is my favorite line. We have no explanations for the shower rooms ! Let's see if I can fantasize one ..... wait a minute ...... I think I have something .... just a thought ..... yes ... yes.... that's it .... the shower rooms were used for taking showers. Quelle idea ! Those crazy Nazis ! BTW, note that in his short book 'Night' Elie Wiesel describes taking showers on six separate occassions, expressly for the purpose of disinfection. Disinfection? Showers? Oh, the fantasies abound !

 

[Kevin.Silbstedt]

The sign was put up after Cole exposed the hoax. Read the van Pelt quote above for confirmation of the obvious.

1. Cole didn't expose anything, Pressac wrote about the reconstruction 3 years before him.
2. Got any evidence, when this sign was put there and if this has anything to do with Cole.
3. Nothing of this is relevant to fact, that there was a gas chamber in this building in 1942/43. You are just trying the "they lied once, so they lied about everything." routine. Boring.

Yeah, to bad, that this room functioned as a gas chamber, which is proven not only by eyewitness testimony,

LOL.

Most part of history is based on eyewitness testimony, which cannot just be dismissed. You deniers don't seem to get that.

Also you let that little piece of info about the forensic study out of the quote. That is also a form of lying and you didn't quote mine here for the first time.

Four of the hoax 'death camps' did not have crematoriums. The bodies were supposedly buried. Of course, the authorities could excavate now .... but no !

Thanks for showing, that you know nothing about the holocaust. Tell me Sherlock, do you always need a crematory to burn a corpse? Nope, and you were already told that here. So another lie. Do you want me to count them?

And hey, you guys claim (against all the evidence), that these mass graves don't exist, so it would be YOUR job to prove that. We are still waiting for that study by Krege.

I'm perfectly happy to accede to this claim, but I expect you to accept that I did find a mass grave in my backyard. Unfortunately, neither the mass grave at Sobibor, or the mass grave in my back yard, has been excavated. But, why sweat these little ... details ?

Too bad, you haven't given us any evidence for your mass grave.

For the mass graves of the holocaust there are pictures. You got any photos? Nope.

And in, for example, Sobibor the mass graves were examined:

Grave no 3 is located in the south- western part of hectare 11 and north - western part of hectare 17. It was excavated by 17 drills. Horizontally, it's irregular, measuring around 20 x 12 m - with its longer side in NS position. The biggest part of the grave is located under north - western part of the memorial. It’s up to 5.80 m deep. In bottom layers, the grave is bony, with human remains in wax- fat transformation. The upper layers are a mixture of burnt body remains with layers of lime stone, sand and charcoal. The northern part of the grave is located near to northern part of the grave no 4. The more precise location of the graves requires additional research.

Grave no 4. It’s a grave with significant size, located in southern part of hectare 11, as well as northern and central parts of hectare 18. It was excavated by 78 drills. Horizontally, in NS position, it measures 70 x 20-25 m with the depth of around 5m. In bottom layers the grave is bony, with human remains in wax- fat transformation. The upper layers are a mixture of burnt body remains with layers of lime stone, sand and charcoal.

[...]

Grave no 5. It’s not a very vast grave, located in the north-western part of hectare 18. It was excavated by 7 drills. Horizontally, it's irregular, measuring at least 10 x 12 m, with its depth up to 4.90 m. In its bottom layers the grave is bony, with human remains in wax-fat transformation. In the upper layers – burnt body remains.

Grave no 6. It’s located in the central part of hectare 18, south from grave no 5. It was excavated by 22 drills. Horizontally, it’s irregular, measuring at least 15 x 25 m, with its depth up to 3.05 m. In its bottom layers the grave is bony, with human remains in wax-fat transformation. The upper layers - burnt body remains.

This was done by Prof. Andrzej Kola and published in a scientic journal in poland, but hey, you should already know that, because it was posted in your own friggin thread. You are again lying, by just ignoring the evidence, that was already presented to you.

The joy of being a Zionist, you get to say anything with a straight face, and a chorus of other Zionists and shabbos goys will nod their heads in sage approval.

And again, you are lying. I'm not a zionist and you know that. You just claim that to make an ad hominem argument, which is truly pathetic.

You guys DON'T have any explainations for the functions of these rooms.

LOL. This is my favorite line. We have no explanations for the shower rooms ! Let's see if I can fantasize one ..... wait a minute ...... I think I have something ..... yes ... yes.... that's it .... the shower rooms were used for taking showers. Quelle idea ! BTW, note that in his short book 'Night' Elie Wiesel describes taking showers on six separate occassions, expressly for the purpose of disinfection. Disinfection? Showers? Oh, the fantasies abound !

You have not proven, that they were shower rooms.

And again you are leaving out the information, that is important for the context (=lying). So to make it quick I ask my question again:

For the "Leichenkeller I" in Krema II and III:
What was the purpose of these two rooms?
And yes, that means you have to present evidence in form of testimony, documents, findings of scientific studies and so on.

Why would these rooms need shower heads and a gas tight door?
Why would they need to be preheated?
Why would there by a "Auskleideraum" in the same building?
Why are they located in a crematory anyway? What is the point of a shower or a delousing chamber in a crematory?
Why would their walls contain cyanide residues?

You cannot even give us an explanation, let alone present evidence for your explanation. So now either shut the hell up and claim a few pages later the same non sense you did here or (again) quote mine the hell out my post and ignore all the evidence, that was presented to you.

 

[Chaos]

There are pictures of the aftermath and probably tons of documents related to it.

Forgeries. Fraud. Paper is very patient.

You have NOTHING that I cannot dismiss out of hand by using your own standards of evidence.

 

[SpitfireIX]

There are pictures of the aftermath and probably tons of documents related to it.

 

[000063]

Holocaust denial is really hard to understand. lots of people think its being denied completely when its just arguing about the severity of it

Also known as denying the official story.

There are pictures of the aftermath and probably tons of documents related to it.

Just like there are with the Holocaust, oddly enough.

 

[Wroclaw]

Forgeries. Fraud. Paper is very patient.

You have NOTHING that I cannot dismiss out of hand by using your own standards of evidence.

And this is precisely the point and why it's so maddening to debate these idiots. They don't see that they're applying a clear double standard to the Holocaust, and they only thing that distinguishes the Holocaust is who the victims were, i.e., Jews.

 

[Wroclaw]

For the "Leichenkeller I" in Krema II and III:
What was the purpose of these two rooms?
And yes, that means you have to present evidence in form of testimony, documents, findings of scientific studies and so on.

Why would these rooms need shower heads and a gas tight door?
Why would they need to be preheated?
Why would there by a "Auskleideraum" in the same building?
Why are they located in a crematory anyway? What is the point of a shower or a delousing chamber in a crematory?
Why would their walls contain cyanide residues?

You cannot even give us an explanation, let alone present evidence for your explanation. So now either shut the hell up and claim a few pages later the same non sense you did here or (again) quote mine the hell out my post and ignore all the evidence, that was presented to you.

Well done, Kevin. Nor can they explain it any more easily when you throw in two more documents that describe the purpose of the room as gassing, calling it the Vergasungskeller or Gaskeller. Further, it's something of a problem that this is also the room that dozens of witnesses identified as being the gas chamber.

In fact, Krema II is one of the most air-tight proofs of gas chambers that there is, if only because the physical evidence and documentary evidence (as pointed out handily by you, Kevin) dovetail with the testimony so exactly.

 

[kageki]

There are no pictures of the gas chamber in operation. Of corpses piled against a door. Of a Nazi pouring gas through the roof or ashes being dumped into rivers.

Stick to the gas chamber and not just the "Holocaust". Mind you that Irving only did a partial recant on the AR camps and still seem reserved in regards to gas chambers.

 

[Wroclaw]

There are no pictures of the gas chamber in operation. Of corpses piled against a door. Of a Nazi pouring gas through the roof or ashes being dumped into rivers.

There are no pictures of the Manson Family killing Sharon Tate and her friends or the Leno and Rosemary Labianca.

Ergo, it never happened.

Who the hell photographs their crimes?

Stick to the gas chamber and not just the "Holocaust". Mind you that Irving only did a partial recant on the AR camps and still seem reserved in regards to gas chambers.

Hey, I didn't realize until this morning that you're Jonnie Hargis's bitch. Congrats on that. You must be proud of yourself.

 

[TSR]

There are no pictures of the gas chamber in operation. Of corpses piled against

.
Nor are there pictures of the actual so-called "bombing" of Dresden. No pictures of the bombs being loaded on the so-called "planes" or forensic evidence that any so-called "damage" was caused by these so=called "bombs". No autopsies of corpses showing the cause of death was these so-called "bombs" dropped by these so-called "planes".

Bottom line -- the so-called Dresden hoax is a degenerate lie: it was all a tragic baking accident.

The ball is in your court, ace.
.

 

[Chaos]

There are no pictures of the gas chamber in operation. Of corpses piled against a door. Of a Nazi pouring gas through the roof or ashes being dumped into rivers.

Stick to the gas chamber and not just the "Holocaust". Mind you that Irving only did a partial recant on the AR camps and still seem reserved in regards to gas chambers.

Do you have pictures of the alleged Allied bombers allegedly dropping their alleged bombs during the alleged raid on Dresden?

Can you prove that these pictures are genuine to the satisfaction of someone whose entire ideology revolves around denying that the pictures could possibly be genuine?

Do you have any actual evidence of the bombing of Dresden that would satisfy the demands you place on evidence of the Holocaust?

 

[SanityGap]

There are no pictures of the gas chamber in operation. Of corpses piled against a door. Of a Nazi pouring gas through the roof or ashes being dumped into rivers.

.

Show me pictures of Fred West* killing his victims or he never did it.
You really don't understand evidence do you?

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_West

 

[Kevin.Silbstedt]

Well done, Kevin. Nor can they explain it any more easily when you throw in two more documents that describe the purpose of the room as gassing, calling it the Vergasungskeller or Gaskeller.

I already presented the "Vergasungskeller" document and the "Vergasungsapparate" document to our local deniers including saggy.

It's like talking to creationist. They either ignore it, tell you it's a fake or try to claim it means something different. Funny how these people don't even understand basic German, but try to teach me the German language, which I speak since my first words.

I also know the Gaskeller document since I live in Erfurt and already visited the new "Topf und Söhne" site, but the word "Gaskeller" is not as clearly as the word "Vergasungskeller", since a "Gaskeller" could also be also a gas shelter or a cellar to delouse clothes. Til this day, there is no explanation for the Vergasungskeller document by the deniers, that does even come close to making sense.

Further, it's something of a problem that this is also the room that dozens of witnesses identified as being the gas chamber.

Doesn't matter to them. They don't (want to) understand the concept of convergence of evidence. If they want to prove, that this one room was a shower room, they just have to claim it. If historians have to proof, that it was a gas chamber, than all the eyewitnesses lie, the perpetrators were tortured, air photos were manipulated, photos from the ground show something different, the forensic studies are wrong or made by zionist liars and the documents mean something different or are just faked. A time machine wouldn't change their view.

In fact, Krema II is one of the most air-tight proofs of gas chambers that there is, if only because the physical evidence and documentary evidence (as pointed out handily by you, Kevin) dovetail with the testimony so exactly.

Yup, but like other whack jobs Holocaust deniers don't focus on the best evidence, but only on the worst and try to distort it or look for "holes". They don't look into the well documented Krema II and III, instead they look at Krema I, which was only experimental, probably "only" killed about 10.000 victims and for which there are few documents.

There are no pictures of the gas chamber in operation. Of corpses piled against a door. Of a Nazi pouring gas through the roof or ashes being dumped into rivers.

God, not this **** again. I quote myself, since I'm tired of this bullcrap:

Wow, well if no evidence means, that something doesn't exist, you seem to have no brain. And because we have not found every missing link as a fossil, evolution is hoax too.
Stop making arguments from the lack of evidence, that is just stupid.

Stick to the gas chamber and not just the "Holocaust". Mind you that Irving only did a partial recant on the AR camps and still seem reserved in regards to gas chambers.

If you want to proof, that a alleged gas chamber was not a gas chamber, then proof it and explain why, there is evidence to the contrary. Just saying "there were no gas chambers" doesn't make it true. And don't tell us about human soap or other stuff, because this doesn't have anything to do with the existence of gas chambers.

You can start with the alleged gas chambers in Krema II and III, for which I and Wroclaw already presented documentary evidence. Explain this evidence, if Leichenkeller I was not a gas chamber, and proof to us, what it really was!

But spare us this argument from ignorance crap, it gets annoying.

Bottom line -- the so-called Dresden hoax is a degenerate lie: it was all a tragic baking accident.

A Hoax just like Bielefeld, I knew it the whole time.

 

[Nick Terry]

1. Cole didn't expose anything, Pressac wrote about the reconstruction 3 years before him.

and Jan Sehn in 1946, about 50 years before Cole. Oh, wait, I seem to have mentioned this already in post #711 of this very thread....