Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Mary_H]

Yet RS and his family, who we are told are very wealthy, chose her. What do they know that you don't? A lot I'd suspect.

I would agree. If this case had been held away from the public eye, things might have been different. Any "unorthodox" actions taken by the Sollecitos might have been effective. Giulia Bongiorno is in a position to trade political favors in return for a positive outcome to her case.

I doubt that any of the investigative team ever expected to be challenged as they have. They seem to have had no clue about the inadequacy and inappropriateness of their methods. My guess is that the system mandates that people just do "whatever" on the job, while the bargaining chips are worked out among the more ambitious puppet masters.

If the cops and the prosecution hadn't gone public so soon, they (and the defendants) would not be in the mess they're in. Mignini probably could have even made the case against him in Florence go away. Now it ain't goin' nowhere.

 

[Kevinfay]

Well they are over priced - see Wittgenstein or Bayes for a fuller explanation.

But I must warn you its very complex - beyond the understanding of mere mortals

Platonov,

I think I'll be wading through Kant, Hegel and all the others, right back to Plato tomorrow, instead of following the action down in Perugia.

I've got a couple of possible solutions to the problem of the overpriced stamp:

If LondonJohn writes his advise to Raff in a JREF post, I'll print it here. The Italian border is only 12 miles away, I often go to Como. I could simply pop it into an envelope and post it from there?

Alternatively,

If LondonJohn is prepared to bankroll the operation 'up front', he could add a P.S. asking that Raff refunds the price of the stamp, from the money he saves by not having to pay that expensive lawyer?

 

[Dan O.]

On the issue of thhe CCTV time offset, one issue had been bothering me: I couldn't come up with a precise terminology to describe the magnitude of the offset that didn't also make the direction of that offset clear. The various phrases I thought of such as "CCTV time is 10 minutes fast/ahead/advanced" but they don't really leave any question of the direction.

This weekend while participating in an exercise that involved making over 1600 phone conversation from a single station in 24 hours, I noticed a discrepancy in the clocks between the paper logs and the computer logs. When I pointed this out, the other operator wrote on the log: "Time -10 min."

I'm sure that he thought what he wrote was quite clear but when the next group tries to process these logs will they interpret this to mean subtract ten minutes from the actual time to get the log times or subtract 10 minutes from the lig times to get the actual time?!

 

[Kaosium]

I think including in your above argument tangential and somewhat strange slurs against Maundy, TJMK, Poliziza Scientifica, and of course the Prosecutor, coupled with all the other ILE you similarly repeatedly slur in past arguments does little other than add to the reasons that opponents here come to the understandable conclusion that the innocence argument contains a lot of conspiracy underpinnings.

Corruption and incompetence do not equate to 'conspiracy' in my view. They are normal everyday attributes of human organizations, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be. Perfection is a goal not an achievement, “Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence” is the way a local 'philosopher' around these parts put it.

In this case Giobbi figures he can just look at someone after a murder, 'study' their behavior and determine guilt: that's incompetence and he's running the show. Mignini gets wild-ass theories and becomes convinced of them because he simply won't change his mind to fit the evidence, he 'finds a way' to have the evidence fit his theory, and in that system no one can stop him. Napoleoni has no idea how to run an interrogation, (what was Raffaele doing sitting in that room alone after 10:40?) and in a very real sense she started this. Stefanoni...I'm still trying to figure out what's she was supposed to be doing, she might simply be an example of the 'peter principal.'

So they blow it, they arrest three innocent people, in part because they overreacted to coincidence and mistakes, but being incompetents they become convinced they're right anyway, even when the obvious perpetrator gets captured in Germany. At that point they have evidence of one person at the scene, and he happens to be a break-in artist which means that 'solves' the question of the 'staged' break-in they never did muster any real evidence of. However, they can't admit they are wrong and in that system they simply don't have to, and they've convinced themselves of it anyway.

So why should they take the blame for the arrest of Patrick? They probably don't think they did anything wrong in trying to pin it all on Amanda, even though it makes them look even more incompetent to try to pretend they went out and arrested a man from those two worthless uncorroborated statements. They've already defamed the accused in the press, and it comes back at them like an echo chamber, except amplified geometrically. Raffaele and Amanda are monsters, Amanda especially so, thus the sly little minx must have manipulated them--yeah, that's the ticket! So it's perfectly justified in their minds to go out of the way to make sure these two degenerates get what's coming to them!

It's not a 'conspiracy,' it's just being human. Naughty incompetent ones mind you, but hardly deleterious conspirators.

Also, if you sincerely believe that releasing that not for public consumption video as well as the blatant attempt to 'call in chips' from influential politicos is a *to be admired act of a caring family*, I simply depart in utter disbelief.

Why? Are you not allowed to petition your elected officials for help where you live? They don't have to say yes and in this case they obviously didn't, but I certainly understand the reason why he might try. His perfectly nice son gets accused of participating in a satanic ritual/sex-game gone bad/whatever and the murder of a girl he barely knew when the father and family knows that's wildly out of character for him, they're going to do what they can to help. I'd say Raffaele is very lucky to have a family as dedicated to him as that, and I'd say the actions on that video condemn the police far more than they act of showing people just how badly they messed up the 'evidence' collection.

Telenorba obviously didn't think it was illegal to broadcast, and simply because Mignini charged them doesn't suggest to me it was illegal. I think Mignini has filed many dubious charges in the course of this 'investigation' and railroading, and I think he needs to go to jail for it. He's done it before, thus this time the sentence won't be suspended. I hope it is compounded.

I also maintain complete bewilderment at your indifference to repeated entreaties from Knox herself, her lead Attorney, and so many others to cease and desist from the senseless counterproductive ILE bashing.

It's my way of showing you I'm not part of the Sinister Gogerty-Marriott/FOA conspiracy!

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the virtues of transparency

I'm sure I've already answered this, but anyway:

If these two scientists have something to contribute to the defense, then surely they should contact the defense lawyers, the appeals are being conducted in open court, not in any exchange of letters?

Kevinfay,

I replied to this once already: the defense asked for its forensic witnesses to be heard, but the judge went with Conti and Vecchiotti, instead. One of the coauthors of the letter (Hampikian) has been working with the defense, as I and others have previously documented.

The letter included the electropherogram culled from the knife. This is enormously beneficial in that it frees us from Stefanoni's interpretations and allows us to examine the evidence itself. Have you read the open letter yourself? If so, what do you think of Johnson and Hampikian's arguments?

 

[RWVBWL]

Frank Sfarzo has a new posting up at
http://perugiashock.com/2011/06/26/‘rudi-told-me-amanda-and-raffaele-are-innocent’/

 

[Fine]

The Massei report may be at odds with Mignini's memory of the sequence of events (it is also somewhat at odds with itself -- no surprise there). According to the report, Luca Lalli, the medical examiner, arrived at the scene hours before Patrizia Stefanoni:

* * *

According to Mignini's recollection, he arrived at the scene, spoke to Patrizia Stefanoni, asked her if she had taken the temperature of the body, and agreed with her that it could wait. That means Mignini got there after 5:00 or 7:00 p.m. (depending on which part of the report you believe).

So who gave Luca Lalli the order at 2:00 not to touch the body? Did Patrizia Stefanoni phone it in en route from Rome? If so, why does Mignini call it "the very first decision that he made?" Did Mignini really did not get to the scene until the evening of November 2nd?

_________________________

Mary,

Both Prosecutor Mignini and Pathologist Lalli were at the cottage on the afternoon Meredith's body was discovered, November 2, 2007...........

Mignini left, Lalli right.

///

 

[Mary_H]

_________________________

Mary,

Both Prosecutor Mignini and Pathologist Lalli were at the cottage on the afternoon Meredith's body was discovered, November 2, 2007...........

[qimg]http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image.php?mode=medium&album_id=21&image_id=2279[/qimg]
Mignini left, Lalli right.

///

Thank you, Fine; that's what I thought. That picture obviously was taken in broad daylight. I hope someone calls Mignini on his little white lie.

 

[Fine]

Candace on Sunday posted a list of questions she'd like to see asked of Rudy in court on Monday.
HERE

I've got a question not on Candace's list. How can Rudy be telling the truth in saying that he found Meredith stabbed and fully clothed (after the lovebirds had attacked Meredith and fled from the cottage)? Rudy says he stayed with Meredith, comforting her and trying to stem the blood loss. When he left there had been considerable blood loss, a pool of blood, illustrated by the bloody shoeprints he left in the corridor as he exited Meredith's bedroom and the cottage. At the time Rudy left Meredith, she was near death. We know that there is considerable aspirated blood on Meredith's bra so her bra must have been exposed shortly after she'd been stabbed. (But there was no pattern of aspirated blood found on Meredith's sweatshirt.) How is Rudy to explain a fully clothed Meredith leaving aspirated blood droplets on her bra?

///

 

[Kaosium]

Candace on Sunday posted a list of questions she'd like to see asked of Rudy in court on Monday.
HERE

I've got a question not on Candace's list. How can Rudy be telling the truth in saying that he found Meredith stabbed and fully clothed (after the lovebirds had attacked Meredith and fled from the cottage)? Rudy says he stayed with Meredith, comforting her and trying to stem the blood loss. When he left there had been considerable blood loss, a pool of blood, illustrated by the bloody shoeprints he left in the corridor as he exited Meredith's bedroom and the cottage. At the time Rudy left Meredith, she was near death. We know that there is considerable aspirated blood on Meredith's bra so her bra must have been exposed shortly after she'd been stabbed. (But there was no pattern of aspirated blood found on Meredith's sweatshirt.) How is Rudy to explain a fully clothed Meredith leaving aspirated blood droplets on her bra?

///

That is a really good question!

I never considered that, I suppose in Rudy's version their isn't a sexual assault, is there? I wonder if his lawyers, who according to some reports seem primed to prevent him from telling the truth, have considered the implications of answering that question if he lies?

 

[billyryan]

I have seen a quote from one of Raffaele's lawyers that they are ready for a savage cross questioning of Rudy but it might not even be necessary

I believe the defence lawyers have their homework done on Rudy and they may be able to force him to admit that Raffaele and Amanda are completely innocent

 

[lionking]

I believe the defence lawyers have their homework done on Rudy and they may be able to force him to admit that Raffaele and Amanda are completely innocent

Funny word "belief". When I and others say we believe something we are regaled with "where's your evidence", "how is this rational" and so on. I somehow think your belief will go unchallenged.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Funny word "belief". When I and others say we believe something we are regaled with "where's your evidence", "how is this rational" and so on. I somehow think your belief will go unchallenged.

It's tragically unfair.

So anyway, when do you think Meredith died and what led you to fix that belief?

What role do you think Amanda and Raffaele played in that murder at that time, and what evidence do you base that opinion on?

(For what it's worth I have no idea what will happen when Rudy testifies and I think any forumite who says they do is probably indulging purely in wishful thinking).

 

[Kaosium]

Platonov,

I think I'll be wading through Kant, Hegel and all the others, right back to Plato tomorrow, instead of following the action down in Perugia.

I've got a couple of possible solutions to the problem of the overpriced stamp:

If LondonJohn writes his advise to Raff in a JREF post, I'll print it here. The Italian border is only 12 miles away, I often go to Como. I could simply pop it into an envelope and post it from there?

Alternatively,

If LondonJohn is prepared to bankroll the operation 'up front', he could add a P.S. asking that Raff refunds the price of the stamp, from the money he saves by not having to pay that expensive lawyer?

Oh, that's all taken care of Kevin, you don't have to worry about any of that. In this day and age there's far superior avenues than snail mail. Anyways, I'm not sure they'd accept anything from bunnies or kittens, even those exiled or orphaned. They might scalp you It's the...fur...they're allergic. No offense intended, of course.

However, you can help me with something. You see we've been informed that it's an Italian prosecutor's solemn duty to investigate and charge every crime against an Italian citizen they come across, anywhere in the world! Did you know that? It got Steve Shay and Joe Cottonwood as well as poor Amanda's parents charged just for writing things in English, or saying them in Seattle. If it wasn't completely clear now we know with the charge against Frank Sfarzo, and their conviction of the Google executives, that the ether is also subject to their wondrous jurisprudence!

I'm feeling neglected here! I have been posting about this case for the better part of nine months and I've yet to earn myself a calunnia charge! I may have been easy on the police in the beginning, but I started in early on Mignini as I soon realized that demented vindictive freak was responsible for the whole tragic tale, and I said so! I've repeated my accusation numerous times, in many different ways, with flourish and relish and have yet to be rewarded with a calunnia charge, not even the consolation of a diffamazione suit. The latter may be only at his discretion, however there is a compulsion to prosecute calunnia, it is automatic as per the requirements of Italian law. It says so on page 12 of Massei!

Now a year ago now your good buddy Peter Quennell was making a list and checking it twice, to get all the 'Enemies of Italy' their well-deserved calunnia charges, even as recent as late this past winter he was threatening people with them on IMDB. However, nothing has come of that, perhaps he was just talking out his ass. Therefore instead of wasting your time offering to do primitively that which a well-oiled conspiracy can do ethereally, why don't you see if you can ensure that these threads, and especially my posts come to the attention of PM Mignini?

However, being as it stipulates that I must know he's innocent of the crime, and I'm damn well sure he's a corrupt abuser of office whose ruined lives and deserves to rot in jail for it and perhaps will, I will have to think of something I said he might be innocent of. Hrm, I once said it's more likely he was involved in the death of Meredith Kercher than Raffaele and Amanda, but being as that's true and a rather simple logical inference, that won't work, will it? I know what will work! I once accused Mignini of juicing a piglet in the most perverse way. I just made that up.

In fact, considering the implications here, I may be able to ensure the Italian Justice System immolates entirely! They can prosecute me separately for each individual accusation, I do hope? I may strike a blow for the dignity of human freedom and rationality in one long polemic diatribe! If that's not enough, being as I come from an environment where the creative employment of the vernacular Anglo-Saxon is considered something of an art form, I know of venues where they permit me to use naughty words! Wouldn't that dress up my court order!

So, if you please, instead of these ferrying missions of no consequence, why don't you just bring this thread to the attention of the Italian authorities? I'm sure they are going to be overjoyed with the fact their idiot laws will require them to spend the rest of eternity tracking down each of us posters to serve us our papers, as absolutely required by Italian law.

 

[komponisto]

(For what it's worth I have no idea what will happen when Rudy testifies and I think any forumite who says they do is probably indulging purely in wishful thinking).

Reports are already in: as expected, he has denied speaking to Alessi about the Kercher murder (although interestingly he has admitted to conversations with Alessi about "this and that").

 

[LondonJohn]

(For what it's worth I have no idea what will happen when Rudy testifies and I think any forumite who says they do is probably indulging purely in wishful thinking).

Well, it looks like (according to our favourite tweeting author, at any rate) things have gone pretty much as I predicted they might: Guede came in, denied having said that stuff to Alessi, demurred on other questions, and left - all within around 40 minutes. And Knox and Sollecito both stood up and made spontaneous declarations to the effect that they weren't there.

I see Latza Nadeau has just tweeted something along the lines "argued" by a paralegal elsewhere: according to her, Knox wanted to address Guede directly, but Hellmann wouldn't allow it. But Latza Nadeau seems to find it strange that Knox didn't in effect disregard the judge's ruling, and call out to Guede that he was a liar. This woman (Latza Nadeau) is obviously not aware of contempt of court rules, notwithstanding the fact that disregarding the instructions of the presiding judge is not exactly a good idea if you are the defendant......

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Reports are already in: as expected, he has denied speaking to Alessi about the Kercher murder (although interestingly he has admitted to conversations with Alessi about "this and that").

It was always going to be a non event, I understand that Amanda asked to address the court before Rudy’s testimony but the judge refused.

 

[RoseMontague]

It was always going to be a non event, I understand that Amanda asked to address the court before Rudy’s testimony but the judge refused.

Raffaele and Amanda, both spoke after Rudy.

 

[komponisto]

Latza Nadeau seems to find it strange that Knox didn't in effect disregard the judge's ruling, and call out to Guede that he was a liar. This woman (Latza Nadeau) is obviously not aware of contempt of court rules, notwithstanding the fact that disregarding the instructions of the presiding judge is not exactly a good idea if you are the defendant......

Except that you and I both know that's exactly the kind of thing Nadeau would have snarkily tweeted if Amanda had done as she suggests.

 

[Kaosium]

Well, it looks like (according to our favourite tweeting author, at any rate) things have gone pretty much as I predicted they might: Guede came in, denied having said that stuff to Alessi, demurred on other questions, and left - all within around 40 minutes. And Knox and Sollecito both stood up and made spontaneous declarations to the effect that they weren't there.

I see Latza Nadeau has just tweeted something along the lines "argued" by a paralegal elsewhere: according to her, Knox wanted to address Guede directly, but Hellmann wouldn't allow it. But Latza Nadeau seems to find it strange that Knox didn't in effect disregard the judge's ruling, and call out to Guede that he was a liar. This woman (Latza Nadeau) is obviously not aware of contempt of court rules, notwithstanding the fact that disregarding the instructions of the presiding judge is not exactly a good idea if you are the defendant......

Well that was anti-climatic. How is it that both a prosecutor and a judge in an inquisitorial 'search for the truth' can refuse to insist the only possible eyewitness of the crime, whose convicted and sitting in jail anyway, answer questions about the crime?

However Napoleoni's up next, right? The Skype call guy as well? Perhaps Rudy could get called back...