Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
Actually Raffaele referred to his statement contradicting earlier alibi statements as crap.

Not so fast.
He referred to the Nov 2 statement as crap in his Nov 5 statement.

While I think that both were crap, technically at that time he called the first one crap.
Then he started to exercise his right to silence.

I would say that the prosecution has to disprove the alibi, not just show that Amanda is not able to prove where she was at each point that evening.

Yes, not having an alibi is not a crime, nor a clue to a crime.
Lying about it is a bit more.
 
Not so fast.
He referred to the Nov 2 statement as crap in his Nov 5 statement.

While I think that both were crap, technically at that time he called the first one crap.
Then he started to exercise his right to silence.



Yes, not having an alibi is not a crime, nor a clue to a crime.
Lying about it is a bit more.

From Darkness Descending:

First Magistrate’ hearing in front of Matteini (8 November 2007), p. 210, Darkness Descending.

“Judge Matteini said, ‘There are several points, Mr. Sollecito, that differ between your version of today and your version of events as related on the evening of 5 November just three days ago. Can you explain whether you were with Amanda Knox that evening or not?’
Now it was make-or-break time. Matteini had posed the million-dollar question. The one Mignini had been waiting for.
His pay-off was unexpected, effectively an explosive retraction of his initial confession.
Raffaele said, ‘I’m sorry I told you that crap about not being with Amanda. We were together that evening.’

From Matteini:

This being clarified, Raffaele, at the review hearing, said he spent the entire night of the 1st and 2nd November with Amanda. They made a return to his house around the time 20.00 – 20.30. He dined with her and became aware of the arrival of messages on her cell phone, thus knew from Amanda she was not required to go to work at the Le Chic pub that night. They went to sleep together to wake the morning after around 10.00, when Amanda was going out to go back to via della Pergola to take a shower.
 
From Matteini:
This being clarified, Raffaele, at the review hearing, said he spent the entire night of the 1st and 2nd November with Amanda. They made a return to his house around the time 20.00 – 20.30. He dined with her and became aware of the arrival of messages on her cell phone, thus knew from Amanda she was not required to go to work at the Le Chic pub that night. They went to sleep together to wake the morning after around 10.00, when Amanda was going out to go back to via della Pergola to take a shower.

Thanks RoseMontague, but will it stop that hopeless dead horse flogging?
 
From Matteini:

Quote:
This being clarified, Raffaele, at the review hearing, said he spent the entire night of the 1st and 2nd November with Amanda. They made a return to his house around the time 20.00 – 20.30. He dined with her and became aware of the arrival of messages on her cell phone, thus knew from Amanda she was not required to go to work at the Le Chic pub that night. They went to sleep together to wake the morning after around 10.00, when Amanda was going out to go back to via della Pergola to take a shower.

I'm confused.... Did they go to sleep together or was RS the whole night behind his computer.
 
Deceased equines, excess of timelines and cyber conservation

Thanks RoseMontague, but will it stop that hopeless dead horse flogging?

Probably not, since the horse is far from dead nor is the flogging unjustified.

Just because Raffie in *one* of his later versions paints a scenario favorable to your cause in no way eliminates the existence or significance of his previous other contradictory versions.
How is one to know just which of Raffie's versions were, or still are, in his own words 'rubbish' delivered to those 'third world water boarder interrogators' just to help Knox.

Knox's *lead attorney* illustrated my point perfectly when he stated he had difficulty finding truth because at the time Amanda had already given three contradictory versions.

If your question about a deceased equine makes any sense to anyone, why didn't Knox's *lead attorney* just select the latest version most favorable to his cause, declare that to be truth, just as you do?
And then berate people for questioning his logic with a tired inapplicable cliche about horses just as you do ?

BTW
Detailed and complete timelines are readily accessible for individuals here who obviously spend inordinate hours gathering factual information at PMF.
Therefore I question the requests for additions to the 50,000 here, especially since some the most prolific arguers here are now arguing via concerns about 'wasting' cyberspace.
 
Last edited:
I've been doing some googling in Polish recently and here's a little curiosity I found:
A blogpost from a Polish girl living in Perugia at the time of crime. Nothing new really but apart from standard tabloid smear it contains a few interesting up-close details.

About Guede:

They arrest Rudy on a train in Germany. He's the same Negro, who a few months before this event had broken in to the flat of my colleague Em and threatened her boyfriend with a knife. He got away with it because the Carabinieri called to the students' place showed up after four hours.


This was probably the Tramontano burglary dismissed by both Micheli and Massei, but I easily believe that it was Rudy.
It was two months before the murder.



About Patrick:

I remember I was drying the dishes, glancing at the TV. When I saw Patrick walked in cuffs the cloth fell out of my hand. We exchanged tens of mails and phone calls with my just met acquaintances in Perugia. No one could believe in Patrick's guilt.

Well, I heard of a Seattle girl who did not find it so unbelievable.
 
Last edited:
Yes they had sex and then went to sleep.

My guess is that Amanda got more sleep that Raffaele. Unfortunate that Raffaele does not give details of how many times and when they had sex, when they went to the bathroom or got a snack, maybe he played on his computer some or played some music. If the judge explores some of the computer claims maybe we will get those details.
 
Thank you for that translation komponisto. It seems as if Mignini is more concerned with his criticism of the local cops than anything he said about the case. He has made some pretty dumb remarks of late. He has been relatively quiet during this appeal, letting Maresca be the mouthpiece for the prosecution. I wonder if someone has told him to limit his comments about this?




This to me represents a very weak fall back position of no proof that Amanda was present. I think he believes the knife evidence will not hold up.

Fallback position is right and an interesting change of position for the prosecution.

That makes sense he would shift his approach again, as he has Raffaeles bathmat partial print and the bra clasp that, at this point, seems to be stronger than anything against Amanda.

(is Mignini confirming the knife is about to be tossed out?)


For the prosecution to totally change the accusation seems to be acceptable in the Italian court system.

Its probably going to change to Raffaele being the murderer and Amanda in the kitchen. What else could it be, at this point.(if the knife fails)

A strong supporter of Raffaele being the attacker is Rudy himself.

Doesnt this align with a couple of Rudys earlier alibi/stories?
That it was a male who had the knife, a male who cut him, and a make who said the phrase of "black man found black man guilty". etc..etc..

Raffaele is now the murderer, not Amanda....what else can the prosecution do if the knife disappears?
 
pilot padron,

I suspect that Michelle's comments about sniper training were in response to threats against them. When I told a friend of mine about the time I was threatened, he indicated that his professional training with a rifle meant that I should not be too worried.

Your 'suspicion' may well be accurate.
However, unable to read minds,neither of us can really elevate that from a suspicion to a fact.

However, an especially salient point is that regardless of the accuracy of your 'suspicion', it dramatically exemplifies and adds emphasis to the very point I argue.
This again is that lengthy accusatorial arguments adorned with unjustified hyperbolic historic comparisons *when aimed solely at one side of this debate* are illogical and offensive.

Regrettably, there are sufficient 'bad apples' on both sides to have made a nice batch of treats for Katody's deceased horse.
 
More Darkness

From Darkness Descending:

First Magistrate’ hearing in front of Matteini (8 November 2007), p. 210, Darkness Descending.

Quote:
“Judge Matteini said, ‘There are several points, Mr. Sollecito, that differ between your version of today and your version of events as related on the evening of 5 November just three days ago. Can you explain whether you were with Amanda Knox that evening or not?’
Now it was make-or-break time. Matteini had posed the million-dollar question. The one Mignini had been waiting for. His pay-off was unexpected, effectively an explosive retraction of his initial confession.Raffaele said, ‘I’m sorry I told you that crap about not being with Amanda. We were together that evening.’


This was not explosive or unexpected. Mignini knew exactly what Raffaele would say. Shortly after Raffaele had signed his SPONTANEOUS DECLARATION to the cops at about 10:40 pm on November 5th, 2007 he'd tried to retract it.....

Raffaele's Diary: "Amanda persuaded me to say something that's not true and I have said so repeatedly to the judge and to the Squadra Mobile."

The Squadra Mobile = The Flying Squad = the cops.

///
 
Last edited:
This was probably the Tramontano burglary dismissed by both Micheli and Massei, but I easily believe that it was Rudy.
It was two months before the murder.

It is amusing that Massei describes these burglaries as entirely different from Rudy's break-in at Meredith's flat.

Even if one accepts that Rudy was the burglar who broke into the law office of the lawyers Brocchi and Palazzoli and into Tramontano's house, it must be observed that Rudy was not known by these, nor by the director of the nursery school in via Plinio, Milan; this situation is entirely different from the one at via della Pergola (and the difference is not a minor one), where Rudy knew the boys from the downstairs flat and knew Meredith and Amanda, and they knew him.

The appeals OTOH point out some of the striking similarites:

The judgment, in fact, has failed to consider that, almost always, Rudy entered buildings by breaking a window reachable only after a climb, leaving behind him a general state of confusion (clothes scattered on the floor, use of the bathroom, consumption of beverages found inside the buildings) and with the availability of a knife. This last fact - which assumes a fundamental importance in relation to the murder in Via della Pergola - was inexplicably ignored by the motivations, which merely mentions it.

In reality, both in the case of the theft from the nursery in Milan, and in that perpetrated at the home of Christian Tramontano, Rudy was carrying a knife: a knife used to threaten, in the case of Tramontano, to make sure he was able to get away, and in the case of Milan, taken from the kitchen.

Also the consumption of beverages and the use of the bathroom represents a common element between these episodes. The witness Brocchi, heard at the hearing of 26 June 2009, stated: "I noticed that this person or persons who had broken into the office had also drunk some drinks that were present in a cabinet" (p. 16 transcript); and also the witness Palazzoli, at the same hearing, reported "Yes, I remember that there was a bottle of orange juice left, if I remember correctly, in the trainees' room (p. 37 transcript 26 June 2009). And also it is likely that the bathroom was used (Palazzoli: "the light had been left on in the office bathroom" p. 35 transcript of the hearing on 26 June 2009).

On her part the witness Tittoni Del Prato, manager and owner of the nursery school in Milan, reported that the bathroom was dirty with urine: "I remember finding pipi in the children's toilet" (p.22, transcript hearing 27 June 2009).

I suppose one has to use their own judgment if they are similar or not. I don't see too many folks that think Rudy was not involved in these other burglaries and I am glad to see you believe that as well. The other burglaries (six in 33 days (IIRC) according to the Graham article) we don't know (yet) the details of (if true).
 
From Matteini:

This being clarified, Raffaele, at the review hearing, said he spent the entire night of the 1st and 2nd November with Amanda. They made a return to his house around the time 20.00 – 20.30. He dined with her and became aware of the arrival of messages on her cell phone, thus knew from Amanda she was not required to go to work at the Le Chic pub that night. They went to sleep together to wake the morning after around 10.00, when Amanda was going out to go back to via della Pergola to take a shower.


Would you quote the next sentence, too, from Matteini?
 
Your 'suspicion' may well be accurate.
However, unable to read minds,neither of us can really elevate that from a suspicion to a fact.

However, an especially salient point is that regardless of the accuracy of your 'suspicion', it dramatically exemplifies and adds emphasis to the very point I argue.
This again is that lengthy accusatorial arguments adorned with unjustified hyperbolic historic comparisons *when aimed solely at one side of this debate* are illogical and offensive.

Regrettably, there are sufficient 'bad apples' on both sides to have made a nice batch of treats for Katody's deceased horse.

It is a fair point and I have never been fond of the who started it first argument or the one that there are more examples from one side or the other. None are justified in my opinion. However some of those attacked have not responded in the same manner. Those I feel are justified in their complaints, personally. This situation seems to have escalated recently and I do not believe it is a good thing for anybody on either side.
 
I am still waiting for your cite on the claim you made that Raffaele called his statement of 2 November "crap".

Are you joking?
That is the famous "sacco di cazzate" (="load of BS") clause in the Nov 5 statement.
I did not think that you asked for it seriously.

But here it is:
"Nel precedente verbale vi ho riferito un sacco di cazzate perché lei mi aveva convinto della sua versione dei fatti e non ho pensato alle incongruenze"

translated:
"In the previous questioning I told you a load of crap because she convinced me of her version of the facts and I did not think of the inconsistencies"
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom