Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[TSR]

This is why we have google, so ... we have on no less authority than Barack Obama himself ...

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Ummm. What is it that makes Obama an authority on WWII history and who, exactly, considers him such?
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"Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of camps where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and gassed to death by the Third Reich.

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He doesn't seem to have stated that each of these activities took place at each camp in the network (which, had he done, would automatically call into doubt his credibility on this specific subject since every camp did not engage in every one of these activities.)
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Or the trusted news organization AP ... this is from 2007, btw, ...

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And a lame excuse of a real citation, btw -- the AP writes hundreads of articles every day of the year, and not all of them even get published.
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Associated Press

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Did you miss the part about "history book" in post to which you replied?
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So, the hoax lies, still current, are that there were gas chambers at Buchenwald and Belsen.

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The only hoax lies here are yours.
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The beauty of the holohoax is that it is absurd on its face, and any lie at all can be told in the mass media, without fear of contradiction, even today.

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Which explains, of course, explains the continued acceptance of works by Misha Defonseca, Herman Rosenblat and Jason Frankenfluffer.

Or were you referring to the famous distorian, David Irving?
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[TSR]

I doubt that any real historian has ever believed the gas chamber idiocy. The reality of the camps has been suppressed for 60 years, but real historians like Germar Rudolf and Gurgen Graf are finally publishing history, instead of the lies that have dominated the academia, the media, and public perception.

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Real historians are not in the habit of creating pen names, writing articles under that pen name, and then citing those pseudonymous articles as demonstrating general support for their lies.

Real historians also do not lie about what their sources say.
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[Wroclaw]

This is why we have google, so ... we have on no less authority than Barack Obama himself ...

"Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of camps where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and gassed to death by the Third Reich. Six million Jews were killed - more than the entire Jewish population of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, ignorant, and hateful."

Two problems here:

(1) Barack Obama is not an historian.

(2) Obama is speaking of the network of camps — not solely Buchenwald.

Or the trusted news organization AP ... this is from 2007, btw, ...

Associated Press

Dr. Fritz Klein (center), who selected prisoners to be sent to the gas chamber at Bergen-Belsen concentration camp in Germany, was forced to move bodies to a mass grave after the camp was liberated by the British in April 1945. Sixty thousand prisoners were found in the camp. Klein was later tried and hanged.

So, the hoax lies, still current, are that there were gas chambers at Buchenwald and Belsen.

Nor is the AP an historical society, although I did find this in the first page of Google hits:

http://www.thestar.com/Corrections/article/258594

The beauty of the holohoax is that it is absurd on its face, and any lie at all can be told in the mass media, without fear of contradiction, even today.

So about those historians? I've got two twenties and a ten at your disposal, buddy...

 

[Wroclaw]

but real historians like Germar Rudolf

Not a trained historian, though he is a chemist by training. And a liar. Did I mention that? Germar Rudolf is a filthy liar.

and Gurgen Graf are finally publishing history

Graf's degree is in modern languages.

instead of the lies that have dominated the academia, the media, and public perception.

Spare me.

 

[Werdum]

Hello all, Could anybody please recommend the best book to read on the holocaust for a decent accounting of the numbers. I would really like to read something that gives an overview without being to technical, and somethnig that you feel is a very trustworthy source of course. I only have a passing interest in this topic but after going to Auschwizt and other places in Poland and Germany I'd like to read more. Thanks in advance.

 

[Corsair 115]

The numbers killed are not exaggerated, they are pure fantasy. The Jews gassed at Dachau, Belsen, Buchenwald, Muthausen, all now admitted by all to be pure fantasy. And the 5,000,000 non-Jewish victims of the holohoax? Pure fantasy...

And the attempted rehabilitation of the Nazi record continues unabated. Yet, curiously, those undertaking the (ultimately futile) rehabilitation effort rarely have the courage to stand up and say proudly and without reservation they admire and approve of the Nazi regime and of Hitler himself.

 

[Clayton Moore]

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Not to mention that both them completely ignore those sent to the camps but never registered, along with many of the camps -- you know, the teeny tiny ones such as Bełżec, Chełmno, Dachau, Jasenovac, Sachsenhausen, Sobibor, Treblinka and Warsaw (just to choose the ones whose toll was in six figures).

Don't you think it's odd that CM claims to have mostly read books by real historians, and yet every single 'source' zie has offered has been a denier. One would think that CM might not have been entirely truthful about zir reading given this dearth of mainstream citations...

Oh, and CM? I missed the part where you explained why you haven't been able to produce Krege's raw data. Believe me, we're all waiting (but none of his is holding their breath).
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You'd think someone would stick to faded testimonies about events that occurred over six decades ago rather than blathering easy to disprove self serving fantasies.

 

[LemmyCaution]

This is why we have google, so ... we have on no less authority than Barack Obama himself ...

"Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of camps where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and gassed to death by the Third Reich. Six million Jews were killed - more than the entire Jewish population of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, ignorant, and hateful."

Or the trusted news organization AP ... this is from 2007, btw, ...


Associated Press

Dr. Fritz Klein (center), who selected prisoners to be sent to the gas chamber at Bergen-Belsen concentration camp in Germany, was forced to move bodies to a mass grave after the camp was liberated by the British in April 1945. Sixty thousand prisoners were found in the camp. Klein was later tried and hanged.

So, the hoax lies, still current, are that there were gas chambers at Buchenwald and Belsen.

The beauty of the holohoax is that it is absurd on its face, and any lie at all can be told in the mass media, without fear of contradiction, even today.

You're joking. 1) Obama is not a historian (the challenge was for you to produce a historian's work making these claims), and his public, commemorative utterances on the topic are not a substitute for the work of historians. 2) You apparently don't know English or elementary logic - the sentence on Obama refers to a network of camps (the whole) which includes various parts having a number of listed elements, but not each part necessarily has all the listed elements. I am referring of course to your boldfaced word. 3) An AP story is not a work of historians.

Far from Wroclaw owing you a dime, I think you owe the members of this forum an apology for your mind-boggling stupidity.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I doubt that any real historian has ever believed the gas chamber idiocy. The reality of the camps has been suppressed for 60 years, but real historians like Germar Rudolf and Gurgen Graf are finally publishing history, instead of the lies that have dominated the academia, the media, and public perception.

Your doubt is assumed. But I wonder if you can name a single trained historian who does not think that the gas chambers operated at the AR camps, Chelmno, and Birkenau, playing their part in the murder of approximately 2.5 million Jews. There might be a lunatic or two out there, but you haven't named one yet, just two demented creatures whose training is utterly not in history.

 

[abaddon]

Hello all, Could anybody please recommend the best book to read on the holocaust for a decent accounting of the numbers. I would really like to read something that gives an overview without being to technical, and somethnig that you feel is a very trustworthy source of course. I only have a passing interest in this topic but after going to Auschwizt and other places in Poland and Germany I'd like to read more. Thanks in advance.

Well, I am not sure if it is the best, but I read Dr. Miklos Nyiszlis Aushwitz, and found it to be a most interesting insight into the denial and sense of self preservation that pushed people to do horrible things. And deny them. The denial of reality is most palpable in that. He was an assistant to Mengele.

 

[Wroclaw]

I'd recommend the student edition of Hilberg. Brief, accessible, and he gives good numbers.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Well, I am not sure if it is the best, but I read Dr. Miklos Nyiszlis Aushwitz, and found it to be a most interesting insight into the denial and sense of self preservation that pushed people to do horrible things. And deny them. The denial of reality is most palpable in that. He was an assistant to Mengele.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p335_Nordling.html
That's a tad high.


I'm sorry, you can't get groups of people, 20th century Christian Europeans, to kill babies and children in a fixed location day after day in secret. That's what the Holocaust mythologians insist happened. Include women and men, to a total of 6 million that's what the Holocaust mythologians insist happened.

And the key lie, to make it unspeakably horrific, was the 2 million or so who were said to be gassed to death.

If you want the truth read my posts. You'll realize the Jewish people of that time weren't stupid and would have known what was going on at the "death" camps before they were "summoned."

Quality labor would have been impossible to get from Jewish internees if they were brutalized or they suspected they or their loved were to be killed.

 

[leftysergeant]

There is no doubt that it was the intent of the Nazis to kill the Jews in their custody. Their slimy piece of crap leader himself wrote that "the Jews are a race, but not a human race." Thus, there was, officially, no requirement that they be treated as humans. They existed only for the benefit of the Reich, and only so long as they were able to work for nothing to enrich the Reich. That any number of them died of typhus is not exculpatory, since they would not have been exposed to typhus had they not been treated like animals. The money and goods confiscated from them couldl have been used to feed them, but was not, so any snivelling about their dying of starvation is just another pathetic attempt to evade prosecution and is NOT exculpatory.

They were, from Krystal Nacht onward, victims of a crime, and any executions of Jews resisting or escaping from interment is an aggravating act, and is in no wayt exculpatory.

Hitler apologists are apologizing for and attempting to ameliorate mass murder, nothing more. That is really sick.

But, were the deniers just sick, that would be better than what I suspect is their real reason for raising the issue.

Some of the sick puppies want to do it again. Theyt want to help polish up the image of the Nazis among us today, to pass them off as just "patriots with a strange point of view," maybe to suggest that it would not be such a bad thing if they were allowed to build a whites-only "homeland" somewhere.

Over my dead body and a few of theirs.

Deniers are giving aid and comfort to an evil that nearly destroyed civilization, and which just might try it again if they are not slapped down as the undesireable scum they are.

I shall continue to call that turd a turd, regardless how much air freshener the deniers spray on it.

Give me one good reason that we should dismiss the accepted history backed by eye witnesses because a group of terrorist sympathizers has what they call "research" at hand.

 

[BaaBaa]

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p335_Nordling.html

Quality labor would have been impossible to get from Jewish internees if they were brutalized or they suspected they or their loved were to be killed.

"Quality' labour was beside the point: “Within the framework of the final solution, the Jews must be sent, in an adapted way, to work in the East the Jews suited to work will be taken along in these territories while building roads, which will lead without any doubt to the natural elimination of a great part of them. If there would be a final residue, it will have to be treated as it is appropriate ” (final report of the conference of Wannsee). The forced labor was useful thus, according to the historian Hans Mommsen, “to camouflage the extermination”.http://www.memo.fr/en/article.aspx?ID=CON_GUE_018

Oh, wait... "Jewish lies", right?

 

[leftysergeant]

If you want the truth read my posts. You'll realize the Jewish people of that time weren't stupid and would have known what was going on at the "death" camps before they were "summoned."

They were summoned at the point of a gun. Learn some history from someone other than the Nazi turds you have been reading.

Quality labor would have been impossible to get from Jewish internees if they were brutalized or they suspected they or their loved were to be killed.

Quality, schmality! They worked or they ate lead. High-tech work was for Germans.

Did you know that in America, vast fortunes were made on the backs of peoplel forced from their homes in a foreign land and beaten into submission and sold as livestock? A large part of the agricultural labor force in America was, for a couple hundred years, regularly brutallized and treated as less than human. The intent was that this system of agricultural production wouldl go on for as long as the civilization lasted.

The Germans intended to be rid of the Jews forever once the war had been won.

Your arguments do not stand up to historical reality.

 

[MG1962]

Quality labor would have been impossible to get from Jewish internees if they were brutalized or they suspected they or their loved were to be killed.

guess again kumquat

 

[LemmyCaution]

Quality labor would have been impossible to get from Jewish internees if they were brutalized or they suspected they or their loved were to be killed.

There has been debate about the efficacy of slave labor, and not just during the Third Reich (for example, many historians view slavery in the Americas as having been an economic failure in the long run, despite the tenacious commitment of the slaveocracy to the institution). Lack of understanding, poor data, fixed ideas, and ideological rigidity are a few of the reasons why less than optimal institutions persist.

Leaving this aside, economic calculations were not, for the Nazis, always and everywhere the priority, as their view of and plans for the Jews trumped this calculus in the long term. Still, in various times and places, "productionists" among the Germans advocated for slightly more lenient treatment of the Jews to encourage productivity, with the result that on occasion rations were increased somewhat, rules were eased a bit, etc. Still, with the mass slaughter of potential Jewish workers, and with food and labor policies that undermined efficient and long-term production, in the long view the ideologically based assault on Europe's Jews held the upper hand in Nazi policy.

That this was the case may offend Clayton Moore's common sense, and seem irrational to him today; this shows only that he doesn't understand the Nazi viewpoint, in terms of which the destruction of the Jewish enemy was a priority competing with and finally superseding other considerations, among them economic ones.

 

[Wroclaw]

I'm sorry, you can't get groups of people, 20th century Christian Europeans, to kill babies and children in a fixed location day after day in secret.

But, presumably, if they're Africans or Asians and they're Muslim or Jewish, then it's no problem?

 

[LemmyCaution]

I'm sorry, you can't get groups of people, 20th century Christian Europeans, to kill babies and children in a fixed location day after day in secret.

Clayton Moore's arguments all precede from his mistaken notions of what seems plausible to his pygmy intellect, never from actual evidence.

 

[MG1962]

Clayton Moore's arguments all precede from his mistaken notions of what seems plausible to his pygmy intellect, never from actual evidence.

I take extreme exception to the suggestion that Pygmies are on the same intellectual level as Clayton