Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Draca]

Meredith's hair on the floor

MK's hair on the floor at Marker K



http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=2308
Marker K by the window. Ron Hendry's analysis is that the attack spun out of control from near the bed diagonally across the room to the desk and window area. At one point MK was grabbed by her hair and forced onto her knees. In the process hair was pulled out.

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=1329
There is also hair on the floor at Marker L, which is moving from the window toward the wardrobe.

Last, there is a very large plug of MK's hair on the floor by the boots that her head was found resting on by the corner of the wardrobe.

All of these locations of MK's pulled out hair on the floor lead me to strongly believe that the hair in her hand in the photo is her own.

 

[Antony]

If the DNA comes back and confirms the original findings, then I'd say it could go either way as it would possibly show that they had some involvement in the crime.

The problem with this view is that even if the DNA readings were genuine, the conclusions placed upon them be the prosecution are unsupportable. There is reasonable doubt (in fact, huge doubt) that these minuscule specks, uncorroborated by other evidence, became attached to the items during the course of the murder.

But the DNA is not genuine. The fact that both items were produced by conjuring tricks should tell us this on its own.

 

[Fine]

The hair-like filaments found on Meredith's body were placed under a microscope by Stefanoni. None was determined to be a human hair. To Stefanoni they "appeared to be wool fibers," but even that was not confirmed.....

"...guardate al microscopio erano apparse essere delle fibre di lana e non avevano dato alcun esito." (Massei, Original Italian, page 195)

It looks like those fibers could be damn near anything. Except hair.

I know that Barbie has claimed that the fiber found on Meredith's left hand was lost after it was collected. (This, according to Skep on the PMF site.) But how could such a potentially critical piece of evidence become lost? The only thing lost---that I'm aware of---was the bra clasp, and it was not lost after being collected and was later found. Even so, Massei describes how the clasp was lost and how it was recovered. If the so-called "blond hair" from Meredith's hand had become lost, don't you think Stefanoni would have had to do some serious splainin' before the court? No mention of it being lost in the Massei Report. And no mention of its loss in Barbie's book either.

But even if we suppose that the fiber had been lost---and therefore never identified as being a hair---why does Barbie write this in her book?...

"It's blonde," the scientific police officer said as he pulled the hair from Meredith's blood-soaked hand. (Angel Face, page 49.)

The hair? Did Barbie herself later find that fiber and have it examined? (What next, mixed hairs?)

///

 

[Draca]

The hair-like filaments found on Meredith's body were placed under a microscope by Stefanoni. None was determined to be a human hair. To Stefanoni they "appeared to be wool fibers," but even that was not confirmed.....

"...guardate al microscopio erano apparse essere delle fibre di lana e non avevano dato alcun esito." (Massei, Original Italian, page 195)

It looks like those fibers could be damn near anything. Except hair.

I know that Barbie has claimed that the fiber found on Meredith's left hand was lost after it was collected. (This, according to Skep on the PMF site.) But how could such a potentially critical piece of evidence become lost? The only thing lost---that I'm aware of---was the bra clasp, and it was not lost after being collected and was later found. Even so, Massei describes how the clasp was lost and how it was recovered. If the so-called "blond hair" from Meredith's hand had become lost, don't you think Stefanoni would have had to do some serious splainin' before the court? No mention of it being lost in the Massei Report. And no mention of its loss in Barbie's book either.

But even if we suppose that the fiber had been lost---and therefore never identified as being a hair---why does Barbie write this in her book?...

"It's blonde," the scientific police officer said as he pulled the hair from Meredith's blood-soaked hand. (Angel Face, page 49.)

The hair? Did Barbie herself later find that fiber and have it examined? (What next, mixed hairs?)

///

Other hairs are mentioned in Amanda's appeal that they are requesting to be tested: http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Appeal.html#anchor_149

"Formation hairs were found under Meredith's fingernails. Mitochondrial DNA exam should be done to determine who this belongs to. This test was not done. This shows that Meredith broke free and grabbed her attacker's hair to try and stop the attack."


Fine, I think there are different 'hairs' being discussed. The one in MK's hand that was either unimportant or lost, and other 'hairs' that were found under MK's fingernails that were never tested. I believe these hairs under her fingernails are the ones referred to as the the black wool like hairs or fiber. The appeal says they were never tested and I think Massei dismisses them as fibers.

Semen stain on the pillow under MK's hips and hair under her fingernails and neither was tested in a sexual assault and murder investigation? Wow - again.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Danceme,

I don't recall Charlie's ever discussing the hair. Are you sure?

Me neither, but I remember that I was speculating about the hair. Basing on the conclusion from Massei that it was found to be wool I connected it with woolly hair typical for African ethnicity.

The hair in the photo is most likely Meredith's. I'm not an expert but I never saw a wool strand or fiber so fine, smooth and straight, just like Meredith's hair was.

 

[LondonJohn]

The photo was the one posted on PMF. Looking at it again without the word - blonde - prejudicing my perception. It's probably Meredith's own hair.

Realizing that, it's not really that interesting. The forensic team probably tested it and found it a match for MK. Although, if they lost it that wouldn't shock me. Either way.....

One very good reason to believe it is Meredith's hair is that she had hair yanked from her scalp that was found on the floor. If MK was crawling on the floor by the wardrobe she could have easily gotten some of her own hair on her hand.

Here's a photo of Meredith taken on the night before her murder:




Blonde-tinted areas can clearly be seen - particularly running all the way down the hair on the front right side (as we look at it), and on some hair visible at the bottom left. I would say this constitutes strong evidence that Meredith had blonde/brown highlights in her hair. I would also imagine that microscopic analysis would have been able to determine whether this was Meredith's hair, based on thickness, opacity and interior colour.

So I would agree with you that there's a fair likelihood that this hair was Meredith's - even if it has an apparent blonde/brown colouration. This is especially likely when considered against the fact that some of Meredith's hair was clearly pulled out during the struggle that led to her death.

But I'd reiterate that unless the hair had been tested and shown to be most likely Knox's, then it's of no probative value against Knox in any case. It either was tested and shown to be of no value, or it was lost before it was tested. Take your pick...

 

[Katody Matrass]

BTW it's interesting that PMF crowd seemingly feels the need to go beyond what is in the real body of evidence. I remember lengthy discussions about terrifying deadly pranks Amanda used to organize, her intensive cocaine use, "my people killed your people" and all the racism plot, the statement analysis lunacy, and now this.

I guess they quietly accept that the evidence the court have might be a tiny bit unconvincing in it's entire amount. I see it as preparation to transcend into a higher level of belief not constrained by this ugly world. The group is not unlike a doomsday cult. There is inevitable disconfirmed expectancy hanging above them, in fact it is already happening in the tortuously slow Italian court way. The blond hair may become a founding miracle of this new faith and we'll witness an enthusiastic effort at proselytizing to seek social support and lessen the pain of disconfirmation.

Just some loose thought connections of mine, but I think the analogy is not completely unfounded.

 

[RandyN]

First lets discuss Benedetti. I may have mentioned this before but was overlooked or else I mentioned it elsewhere. I’m fairly certain Hellmann is who wants to hear from him. Why? Because he is Rudy’s friend, but more importantly he is the person who went to police and mentioned to them that he was pretty certain Rudy Guede was involved in the murder. The police never figured out who left the footprints or fingerprints or handprints or even who left DNA that all related later to Rudy Guede. Benedetti went to police first! Only then did they start looking at someone called Rudy Guede. I’m certain Hellmann wants to hear why Benedetti went to police and what made him suspect Rudy was involved. There was more than one contact with Rudy. The long Skype contact was a set up being recorded by police. The first contact I think was IM. This is when Benedetti figured out Rudy was involved.


Rolfe...you want me to poke a hole in your TOD? It was slippage. All material already in the duodenum slipped down and out to a place further along the small intestine.

This excuse was tried by the prosecution I think but autopsy video showed each area properly isolated. This was still thrown out as an excuse for a later TOD.

I think some "expert" actually had the nerve to suggest that the stress changed the digestion process ala Sherlock. Of course that it ridiculous. The additional evidence is no follow up phone call by MK to her mother. So 8:58 or so is it. She never took off her coat or shoes. She never turned up the heat yet. She ignored her wet laundry in the wash machine. No text messages which were her normal pattern. All these additional circumstantial things point to a TOD around 9:05 - 9:15 PM Also Rudy actually says in Skype 9:10 to 9: 20 for the loud scream. This was misinterpreted as later time. So I’m sticking with TOD 9:15


The hair which can not be determined to be blond is actually quite dark and thought to be MK own hair. Even though the hands were bagged somehow this hair was lost. This photo is a screen shot of the autopsy video.

Pilot... "mere mortals" who are able to follow the simple rules of the PMF website merely need to log in and immediately are able view all photos "at any moment".
Just like IIP, etccccccccc"

I consider myself a mere mortal and yet somehow my IP has been banned from the site you speak of. I followed every rule as far as I know. I did question blind assumptions of guilt and was attacked with name calling and then a request that I need not return. I thought Peggy was kidding but next day I find I am blocked. I cant even read the site...well that's what they assume anyway. But you know what they say about those who assume.

Anyway...its not a blond hair but wouldn’t it be great if it was… ohhh that’s right they lost it. I think the hair is with the missing tapes. Or maybe the burned up hard drives.


BTW....I think the appeal is going great! The knife will go, the bra clasp will stay but will be highly suspect. So many different profiles on such a small item. One is certainly RS. It traveled there by sloppy "expert" handling. (Hey look at this...ohhh let me see it....I want to hold it...no let me hold it ...oh crap I dropped it ...that’s ok lets take a picture....no I want to hold it now....ok but then put it in the plastic bag....oppps should have been a paper bag....that’s right. That was in evidence collection 101. Doughhhhhh!

 

[Rolfe]

Also, Rolfe it might amuse you to know that back in 2009 Stilicho was happily arguing that the JREF forumites must all be wrong because you personally had not weighed in on the autopsy evidence.

Link, search for "Rolfe".

Oh well. So much for that argument. I wonder if Stilicho's professed respect for your professional opinion actually extends to respecting it? As opposed to ignoring it completely when it conflicts with his pre-existing views, I mean, which is what he currently seems to be doing.

I remember that incident. It was in another thread where I was discussing something else, though I don't remember what. Likely to have been Lockerbie, I would think. Looking at the date, it must have been quite soon after the original "cartwheel" thread was started here. I followed that thread for a little while at that time, but the thread was growing far faster than I could read it, and it all seemed quite confusing. Also, the Lockerbie affair was in one of its periodic convulsions right then, because Megrahi had most inconsiderately not died when he was supposed to die, and a lot of people were getting quite upset about that. And I was in the middle of trying to get up to speed with that case, which is a lot more complicated than one sordid little murder by several orders of magnitude.

At the time I had no idea at all what the medical evidence was in connection to the Kercher murder. I told Stilicho that, and explained that the only reasonable conclusion to be drawn from my absence from the thread was that I had not been following the case in detail, and had neither the time nor the inclination to get up to speed on it. He seemed to take this answer as evidence of some sort of JREF conspiracy, though I can't imagine why. I mean, if I'd had an opinion on the medical evidence one way or another at the time, why would I not have said so?

I didn't even know what the medical evidence was until I happened to read a summary in the Massei/Mignini thread, quite recently. I have to say I was absolutely gobsmacked when I read it, because it looked like a deal-breaker to me. And it still does, because nobody has been able to explain how it could reasonably mean anything but what it quite obviously implies at face value.

Rolfe.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip> I see it as preparation to transcend into a higher level of belief not constrained by this ugly world.

<snip>The blond hair may become a founding miracle of this new faith and we'll witness an enthusiastic effort at proselytizing to seek social support and lessen the pain of disconfirmation.<snip>

It will be a losing battle.

I have always found it most baffling that their leaders are so strongly motivated by a craving to be among the intellectual and social elite, yet they dwell in a trashy hole of debunked minority opinion -- one that is never going to be embraced by anyone who is actually intellectually or socially elite.

Why are their elite-o-meters functioning so poorly?

 

[Fine]

Other hairs are mentioned in Amanda's appeal that they are requesting to be tested: http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Appeal.html#anchor_149

"Formation hairs were found under Meredith's fingernails. Mitochondrial DNA exam should be done to determine who this belongs to. This test was not done. This shows that Meredith broke free and grabbed her attacker's hair to try and stop the attack."


Fine, I think there are different 'hairs' being discussed. The one in MK's hand that was either unimportant or lost, and other 'hairs' that were found under MK's fingernails that were never tested. I believe these hairs under her fingernails are the ones referred to as the the black wool like hairs or fiber. The appeal says they were never tested and I think Massei dismisses them as fibers.
Semen stain on the pillow under MK's hips and hair under her fingernails and neither was tested in a sexual assault and murder investigation? Wow - again.

_____________________

Draca,

I don't believe there were any hairs found under Meredith's fingernails. Here's the relevant text of the APPEAL document you mention:

L'ulteriore rilievo che va posto all'attenzione e che sotto le unghie di Meredith sono stati riscontrate "formazioni pilifere," come si evidenzia dalla lettura della relazione genetica. (Amanda Appeal, page 110.)
[Google:The further point out that attention should be placed under the fingernails and Meredith were found "hair formations," as evidenced by the reading of the genetic relationship.]

These "formazioni pilifere" appear to be stem cells, formative cells. And they don't seem to have been discovered visually--- even under a microscope--- but their presence is evidenzed by whatever genetic information was extracted from under Meredith's fingernails.

///

 

[Rolfe]

It will be a losing battle.

I have always found it most baffling that their leaders are so strongly motivated by a craving to be among the intellectual and social elite, yet they dwell in a trashy hole of debunked minority opinion -- one that is never going to be embraced by anyone who is actually intellectually or socially elite.

Why are their elite-o-meters functioning so poorly?

I have always found it a little strange that people should be so aerated in support of the guilt of someone who has been found guilty by legal process. Maybe it's just me, but I tend to react to situations where it seems that the legal process has got it wrong. I never felt an impulse to run around campaigning for Fred West or Harold Shipman or Peter Sutcliffe or Robert Black or Roy Whiting or Peter Tobin to rot in jail.

Even if there were active campaigning groups supporting the innocence of these convicts, I don't think I'd pay a lot of attention. (Though when that happens, and you do pay attention, sometimes you find out stuff that surprises you - like what I was saying about Michael Stone.)

Maybe it's more reasonable than I give it credit for. It still seems strange to me though.

Rolfe.

 

[Diocletus]

Here's a photo of Meredith taken on the night before her murder:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_402374e01aa97506c9.jpg[/qimg]


Blonde-tinted areas can clearly be seen - particularly running all the way down the hair on the front right side (as we look at it), and on some hair visible at the bottom left. I would say this constitutes strong evidence that Meredith had blonde/brown highlights in her hair. I would also imagine that microscopic analysis would have been able to determine whether this was Meredith's hair, based on thickness, opacity and interior colour.

So I would agree with you that there's a fair likelihood that this hair was Meredith's - even if it has an apparent blonde/brown colouration. This is especially likely when considered against the fact that some of Meredith's hair was clearly pulled out during the struggle that led to her death.

But I'd reiterate that unless the hair had been tested and shown to be most likely Knox's, then it's of no probative value against Knox in any case. It either was tested and shown to be of no value, or it was lost before it was tested. Take your pick...

Good analysis. I would also add that if it was Knox's hair, and Knox was guilty, then she certainly would have "cleaned up" this hair with her magic DNA vacuum. Therefore, we can say that either Knox isn't guilty or the hair can't be her's.

 

[RoseMontague]

I have always found it a little strange that people should be so aerated in support of the guilt of someone who has been found guilty by legal process. Maybe it's just me, but I tend to react to situations where it seems that the legal process has got it wrong. I never felt an impulse to run around campaigning for Fred West or Harold Shipman or Peter Sutcliffe or Robert Black or Roy Whiting or Peter Tobin to rot in jail.

Even if there were active campaigning groups supporting the innocence of these convicts, I don't think I'd pay a lot of attention. (Though when that happens, and you do pay attention, sometimes you find out stuff that surprises you - like what I was saying about Michael Stone.)

Maybe it's more reasonable than I give it credit for. It still seems strange to me though.

Rolfe.

I have no issue with those supporting guilt doing so in a debate or a discussion of the facts. It is the attempt to quiet those that give opinions of innocence that exceed the boundaries of a discussion board that I find hard to comprehend.

ETA: An example would be sending letters and emails to a poster's employer in an attempt to silence them.

 

[Diocletus]

So 8:58 or so is it. She never took off her coat or shoes. She never turned up the heat yet. She ignored her wet laundry in the wash machine. No text messages which were her normal pattern. All these additional circumstantial things point to a TOD around 9:05 - 9:15 PM Also Rudy actually says in Skype 9:10 to 9: 20 for the loud scream. This was misinterpreted as later time. So I’m sticking with TOD 9:15
QUOTE]

Agreed. The one thing that gets me, though, is that we have confirmed activity at 8:58 (possibly corresponding with the start of the attack), and (if Rudy is speaking truthfully/accurately, which is a big if) a scream at 9:10 possibly as late as 9:20. Is it really possible that she was attacked at 8:58 but waited for 12 or even 22 minutes to scream? It seems like the most logical time for a scream would be at the initiation of the attack, when she was surprised.

If it is the case that she waited for 12 or 22 minutes to scream, then perhaps this suggests that this was a period during which an escalating sexual assault was occurring. And, that this escalating sexual assault for some reason culminated in a scream that caused Rudy to make the first cut?

So my questions are 1) why no scream at the commencement of the attack, and 2) what caused the scream that would have preceeded the knife cut? Is it possible that the delay does suggest the involvement of a second person--a Rudy friend?

 

[tsig]

How can anyone actually believe that Amanda Know would kill another?

Why not?

 

[tsig]

I mean she doesn't look like a killer to me.

I once saw a video of Charles Manson, and Amanda Knoz is no Charles Manson.

Yeah, killers all have a "K" stamped on their forehead.

 

[Rolfe]

I have no issue with those supporting guilt doing so in a debate or a discussion of the facts. It is the attempt to quiet those that give opinions of innocence that exceed the boundaries of a discussion board that I find hard to comprehend.

ETA: An example would be sending letters and emails to a poster's employer in an attempt to silence them.

I think what I find strange is the vehemence, and the obsession (to the point of setting up dedicated web sites and forums for goodness sake), and the sheer vindictive hate directed against someone who is already being punished, if she is indeed guilty.

I don't recall ever feeling that aerated about someone I believed had been justly convicted of a murder. I mean - why? They were caught, fine, move on.

In the situation where the judicial process is actually still ongoing and it seems impossible for any rational observer to be 100% sure of guilt, I find it downright creepy.

And attacking people for highlighting what they see as a miscarriage of justice, well that's just bizarre. Writing to employers? What is motivating this, for goodness sake?

Rolfe.

 

[tsig]

It will be a losing battle.

I have always found it most baffling that their leaders are so strongly motivated by a craving to be among the intellectual and social elite, yet they dwell in a trashy hole of debunked minority opinion -- one that is never going to be embraced by anyone who is actually intellectually or socially elite.

Why are their elite-o-meters functioning so poorly?

Who is this intellectually and social elite?

 

[Rolfe]

Rolfe...you want me to poke a hole in your TOD? It was slippage. All material already in the duodenum slipped down and out to a place further along the small intestine.

Er, who says so and have they ever actually handled an intestine at post mortem?

How far is this stuff supposed to have slipped? Just how incompetent are we suggesting this pathologist actually is? Or maybe he was deliberately working for the defence or something?

This excuse was tried by the prosecution I think but autopsy video showed each area properly isolated. This was still thrown out as an excuse for a later TOD.

Ah, snookered.

I think some "expert" actually had the nerve to suggest that the stress changed the digestion process ala Sherlock. Of course that it ridiculous. The additional evidence is no follow up phone call by MK to her mother. So 8:58 or so is it. She never took off her coat or shoes. She never turned up the heat yet. She ignored her wet laundry in the wash machine. No text messages which were her normal pattern. All these additional circumstantial things point to a TOD around 9:05 - 9:15 PM Also Rudy actually says in Skype 9:10 to 9: 20 for the loud scream. This was misinterpreted as later time. So I’m sticking with TOD 9:15.

Well, apart from finding it incredibly easy to believe that someone might ignore their wet laundry in the washing machine, I'm with you.

Rolfe.