Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kestrel]

I qualified mine as well, because there is one piece of evidence that could change my mind as to whether they had any involvement, and that's the tape of the interrogation. If that tape more or less corroborated what the cops said [/b]then[/b] I could accept that Amanda had actually repressed memories of the murder due to slipping out shortly after her and Raffaele were done celebrating that she didn't have to go to work that night, maybe to get a mop, and was cowering in the kitchen when Rudy Guede did what he did, but being so terrified she didn't actually see him very well and just assumed for some reason it was Patrick.

The problem with this theory is that repressed memories don't really exist. The widely reported cases of therapists coaxing repressed memories from patients were actually cases of false memories created by the therapist's suggestions.

 

[Diocletus]

But the bulk of the Skype call has Guede saying things that are very similar to the story that Alessi (and the other inmates) say Guede told him in prison. So I think Hellmann wants to understand a number of things:

1) Does Guede confirm or deny that he said these things to Alessi in prison?

2) Does he confirm or deny that he said the things he said in the Skype call to Benedetti? (He really can't deny this under threat of perjury - it's all on tape)

3) Once it's confirmed that he said this to Benedetti, the next question will be why he gave this version of events to Benedetti? Why, for example, does he only mention Knox peripherally and very nebulously in this conversation, and is indecisive about Sollecito, while some months later he appeared certain that they were both actively involved?

4) If Guede denies having the prison conversation with Alessi, the follow up question would be whether the story given by Alessi was Guede's version of events at that time. If Guede denies that, he can be presented with the version he gave to Benedetti in rebuttal.

I had understood that Guede was being called by the prosecution as a rebuttal witness. Maybe that is not correct, though, as I'm not clear as to how all of the new witnesses were identified and designated.

IF Rudy is just a rebuttal witness, then he would just testify that Alessi is lying about the conversation.

Now, the testimony you point out would be great for cross-examining Rudy. The strategy would be to show that Rudy has a reason to lie and/or is a spectacular liar. The reason would be that he believes that if he admits to the Alessi tale, then he will get re-sentenced. The spectacular liar part is easy--and the skype conversation could be a part of that line of questioning. It's difficult to imagine, though, that the prosecution would want to bring in the skype call because it's not really consistent with the prosecution's theory of the case and just demonstrates Rudy to be telling different tales (which makes it more likely that he said something else to Alessi).

What the judge will do when he gets ahold of Rudy I have no idea. But, I expect the parties to be careful with the scope of their questioning.

It seems odd and desparate strategy that the prosecution would have Rudy, a known liar and murderer, testifying in support of the prosecution's case. I don't think this is analogous to the defense calling witnesses from jail to testify about what Rudy is saying in jail.

 

[PhantomWolf]

So how do you think the appeal will go and why?

Depends on the DNA evidence in my opinion. If the DNA evidence comes back as being flawed and so is removed, then I'd suggest it would go like this.

With the DNA evidence gone that removes all evidence of either AK or RS in the murder room.

The rest of the evidence can be discredited pretty quickly, or points solely at RG.

With their eye-witness gone, the prosecution and Massei's claim of a late ToD evapourates, and with the Defence's evidence the ToD easily can go back to 9:20-9:30pm based on solely on RG's claims in the Skype chat. (I doubt that anyone would claim that he doesn't know roughly when MK died.)

With the early ToD, the Defence will introduce the 9:26pm file activation on RS's computer eliminating him as a possible killer, and allowing for him to alibi AK. The Prosecution will try to point out that he gave a different story to the police, however it's not hard to show that what he told the police that night couldn't have been true since they were both seen at his apartment by a third party at a time when the story the police got him to say had them both downtown.

This is enough for reasonable doubt, and as such a finding of not guilty.

If the DNA comes back and confirms the original findings, then I'd say it could go either way as it would possibly show that they had some involvement in the crime.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

figurative dustbin (predictions about the DNA)

I predict that the knife gets tossed on multiple grounds. The bra clasp may be down but not out. They may acknowledge that it is Sollecito's DNA but criticize the way it was handled. I hope that this does not give Judge Hellman enough room to uphold the convictions. I think that the collection errors and the presence of enough alleles to suggest multiple persons ought to get the bra clasp put into a figurative dustbin, to match its actual condition when collected.

 

[spartacus]

The problem with this theory is that repressed memories don't really exist. The widely reported cases of therapists coaxing repressed memories from patients were actually cases of false memories created by the therapist's suggestions.

False memories can be created but there is also something called dissociative amnesia which is accepted diagnosis in psychiatry and which can be understood as describing the same phenomena previously described as repressed memory but without the theoretical framework relating to the cause.

 

[Kaosium]

The problem with this theory is that repressed memories don't really exist. The widely reported cases of therapists coaxing repressed memories from patients were actually cases of false memories created by the therapist's suggestions.

I was thinking of a sort of selective retrograde amnesia, mnestic block syndrome or somesuch, I shouldn't have used the term 'repressed memories.' Long odds perhaps, but if the videotape suggested it happened the way they said, it would perhaps allow for her behavior between the murder and the interrogation, both being considered somewhat odd by observers, yet her not actually realizing she was there and thus trying to help and act normal.

I mean, they might have been telling the truth about part of the interrogation. Even if they didn't realize it!

 

[Kestrel]

I predict that the knife gets tossed on multiple grounds. The bra clasp may be down but not out. They may acknowledge that it is Sollecito's DNA but criticize the way it was handled. I hope that this does not give Judge Hellman enough room to uphold the convictions. I think that the collection errors and the presence of enough alleles to suggest multiple persons ought to get the bra clasp put into a figurative dustbin, to match its actual condition when collected.

Was the bra clasp match done using Y-STR or was it a standard DNA match?

 

[Chris C]

False memories can be created but there is also something called dissociative amnesia which is accepted diagnosis in psychiatry and which can be understood as describing the same phenomena previously described as repressed memory but without the theoretical framework relating to the cause.

So she lead the sexual assault/murder from outside the room and repressed those memories?

 

[Chris C]

Was the bra clasp match done using Y-STR or was it a standard DNA match?

I keep hearing it was Y-STR but the only thing i've ever seen is the standard DNA match which has a graveyard of unclaimed alleles.

 

[spartacus]

So she lead the sexual assault/murder from outside the room and repressed those memories?

We were just spinning the "what would the story be if it was the .01% chance that she was really guilty based on the available evidence" story.

The police interpretor/mediator/whatever told her that she broke her ankle and couldn't remember what happened (which is possible) and used that to get AK to come up with her confused imaginings based on the cops story that they had proof that she was there and she had to come up with something.

 

[komponisto]

Here is another quote, anyone know the details behind this one?

They told him some local pushers were Gadafi agents, about to invade the Libyan embassy, and he believed them… They were arrested guess where? In Rome, while jumping into the embassy? While looking at the embassy? At least on their way to Rome? No, in Perugia, sleeping at home… A strange way to make a push…What are they going to be charged with, crime of dreaming a push?…

It concerns a man by the name of Nuri Ahusain, a professor in Perugia:

http://www.umbria24.it/libia-arrest...i-studenti-e-referente-di-gheddafi/45071.html

Excerpt:

Voleva uccidere l’ex ministro degli esteri della Libia Questa volta a firmare per spedire un altro libico dietro le sbarre è stato direttamente il gip Luca Semeraro su richiesta del sostituto procuratore Giuliano Mignini e del procuratore capo Giacomo Fumu. Secondo quanto sostiene il giudice, Ahusain, oltre ad aver più volte minacciato anche di morte alcuni suoi concittadini sostenitori della rivolta in Libia, avrebbe manifestato l’intenzione di voler uccidere l’ex ministro degli esteri del regime del Raìs. Lo ha detto in una telefonata del 29 maggio, quando Abdulrahman Shalgam si trovava a Roma.


He intended to kill the ex-foreign-minister of Libya. This time, the one who signed the order to put another Libyan behind bars was preliminary judge Luca Semeraro himself, at the request of deputy prosecutor Giuliano Mignini and head prosecutor Giacomo Fumu. According to the judge, Ahusain, in addition to having made death threats against some of his compatriots who supported the revolt in Libya, showed the intention of killing the ex-foreign-minister of [Qaddafi's] regime. He said so in a telephone call of May 29, when Abdulrahman Shalgam was in Rome.

 

[lane99]

...It's a simple conundrum. Either the evidence of the meal time is wrong, or the evidence of the post mortem findings is wrong, or the alibi is not unbreakable...

What they have, and have always had, is less than an unbreakable alibi. Regardless of the TOD, they have the same reasonable, but not entirely substantiated, alibi that they have always had and maintained (save for a brief period when, for example, Amanda Knox abandoned it after being slapped around by the police).

If the TOD was around 9-ish, then their alibi is on a more solid foundation than if it was, say, after 10, due to the record of human activity of the boyfriend's computer around 9.

But,the computer activity, at best, shows that *one* of the couple was probably at the boyfriend's place at that time. It can't, unbreakably, account for both of them.

BTW, in most cases, there's really no such thing as "iron-clad" or "cast-iron" alibis. If Patrick the bartender have ever been to the cottage, and had left his DNA there somewhere, he'd probably be in jail now. Ask David Camm about that. Who was convicted of murdering his family, even though, at the time the murder is believed to have happened, 10 people swore he was playing basketball with them at the local court.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

problems with the bra clasp DNA

Was the bra clasp match done using Y-STR or was it a standard DNA match?

Kestrel and Chris C,

My understanding is that they followed up a standard DNA profiling run with a Y-STR analysis. I have looked over the electropherogram of the former, and there are several problems, as previously noted. The collects appear to have used dirty gloves (not single-use forceps), and the item was handled too much. Raffaele's putative profile is on the borderline of being in low template range. Dr. Stefanoni may or may not have used a suspect-centered approach to analyzing the profile. However, the presence of extra alleles is the most serious problem I have with the clasp. I have not looked over the Y-STR work, but I provisionally accept that it was Raffaele's profile. For me the central question is not whether or not Raffaele's DNA is present, it is how did it get there. That question has multiple answers. MOO.

 

[lane99]

False memories can be created but there is also something called dissociative amnesia which is accepted diagnosis in psychiatry and which can be understood as describing the same phenomena previously described as repressed memory but without the theoretical framework relating to the cause.

Dissociative amnesia is not what was "previously described" as repressed memories. It is the "technical term" that was always used to describe the more colloquial "repressed memories".

The reason there is no theoretical framework relating to the cause is because the previous framework asserted has been exposed as woo. Though, checking now the Wikipedia entry, I see the same junk science studies which were used during the height of the repressed memory hysteria still being trotted out to try and bolster it.

How is DA related to this case? Is the boyfriend claiming to have suffered from it? If so, I think such a "diagnosis" is not required to explain the confusion he experienced.

 

[zeb]

Oh rudy, let it be

I had understood that Guede was being called by the prosecution as a rebuttal witness. Maybe that is not correct, though, as I'm not clear as to how all of the new witnesses were identified and designated.

IF Rudy is just a rebuttal witness, then he would just testify that Alessi is lying about the conversation.

Now, the testimony you point out would be great for cross-examining Rudy. The strategy would be to show that Rudy has a reason to lie and/or is a spectacular liar. The reason would be that he believes that if he admits to the Alessi tale, then he will get re-sentenced. The spectacular liar part is easy--and the skype conversation could be a part of that line of questioning. It's difficult to imagine, though, that the prosecution would want to bring in the skype call because it's not really consistent with the prosecution's theory of the case and just demonstrates Rudy to be telling different tales (which makes it more likely that he said something else to Alessi).

What the judge will do when he gets ahold of Rudy I have no idea. But, I expect the parties to be careful with the scope of their questioning.

It seems odd and desparate strategy that the prosecution would have Rudy, a known liar and murderer, testifying in support of the prosecution's case. I don't think this is analogous to the defense calling witnesses from jail to testify about what Rudy is saying in jail.

It was not the prosecution, or the defence that asked for Rudy to be brought to court, it was Judge Hellmann, who said that he would like hear what Rudy as to say.
So the Judge is saying lets hear Rudy story.
I do not saying what he will tell, but it seems that Amanda and Raffaele can question the witness, which they could not before.
The only thing is for his lawyer, to advise him, and as we know, he likes to lie, and tell them big.

 

[Rolfe]

What they have, and have always had, is less than an unbreakable alibi. Regardless of the TOD, they have the same reasonable, but not entirely substantiated, alibi that they have always had and maintained (save for a brief period when, for example, Amanda Knox abandoned it after being slapped around by the police).

If the TOD was around 9-ish, then their alibi is on a more solid foundation than if it was, say, after 10, due to the record of human activity of the boyfriend's computer around 9.

But,the computer activity, at best, shows that *one* of the couple was probably at the boyfriend's place at that time. It can't, unbreakably, account for both of them.

Well, that seems reasonable. So it's possible still to construct a case for guilt with the murder happening soon after 9pm.

So why the crickets when anyone asks those who believe in guilt what the time of death was? Why not just go with the medical evidence and take it from there?

Rolfe.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Ms. Popovic's testimony

Well, that seems reasonable. So it's possible still to construct a case for guilt with the murder happening soon after 9pm.

So why the crickets when anyone asks those who believe in guilt what the time of death was? Why not just go with the medical evidence and take it from there?

Rolfe.

Rolfe,

Ms. Popovic spoke with Amanda around 8:45 PM (20:45) at Raffaele's place and described her as acting normally. Now one has to postulate something like Amanda's and Raffaele's getting (very) high from 8:45 to 9:08 (last undisputed human action on his computer?), then meeting up with Rudy and murdering Meredith in the next twenty minutes or so. It is not impossible, I suppose, but it is not a story i find likely. If one includes a file-opening event around 9:29 (is this disputed?), then it seems to be even less likely. Why wouldn't Meredith have rung up her mother again?

 

[spartacus]

How is DA related to this case? Is the boyfriend claiming to have suffered from it? If so, I think such a "diagnosis" is not required to explain the confusion he experienced.

As I said above the police interpreter/mediator told AK that she broke her ankle and couldn't remember to "prime" her to come up with memories for things that she couldn't remember because she was suppossedly traumatized.

 

[Legend]

I drank some orange juice today.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I don't care what they say in court, and I don't care how the defence screw it up (if they do), IF it is established fact that Meredith ate her last meal starting before 6.30, and her duodenum was empty at post mortem while her stomach contained about 500ml ingesta including recognisable pieces of semi-digested pizza, then she died not long after 9pm. End of story. A bunch of incompetent lawyers (now there's a tautology) getting it wrong doesn't change reality.



Rolfe.

Really - so there is nothing in this world that could stop or slow down digestion when the attack first happened on Meredith, like stress, fear and anxiety and I dare anyone on this board to tell me how long the attack on Meredith lasted. How long from the first stab wound till the last one. No one knows except the ones responsible. Stomach contents and TOD mean nothing, stomach contents and time of attack on the other hand, probally do.