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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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My problem is for the innocentisti narrative to play out, it would require a large and sophisticated conspiracy involving the police, forensic scientists and probably also the prosecution. Lasting years. With no whistleblowers. In what many people here describe as a shambolic justice system.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

No, it doesn't require a large and sophisticated conspiracy. Innocent people get jailed and sentenced sometimes; that's they way justice works. It's not perfect. There's a emperical basis for the claim that miscarriages of justice happens, and that this is seldom a result of a conspiracy. That is not a skeptic position. Knox and Sollecito acted suspiciously in the eyes of the police and that is all it takes to get the ball rolling. It hard to stop that ball after that. The police and prosecutors that were convinced of guilt from the get go will continue be convinced of guilt. That is human nature; we all want to be right. And like in many other cases there is evidence that can be interpreted as a sign of guilt, enough to convince the court. But it does not necessarily follows from that that it in reality is a sign of guilt. We can't be sure, because it's not a courts job to get to the truth and find out what really happened. Only a god could do that. Not human justice.

But this argument has been discussed ad nauseam and since it has a thread of its own, why not discuss it there? :)
 
I could point you towards all those who have reported (with certainity) that they have seen a UFO or Bigfoot. I'm a skeptic and a critical thinker, that's why I post on this forum. Just show me the actual evidence/verbatim testimony, not what others say the evidence and testimony is. Why is this so difficult? You would expect nothing less if it was a claim of a UFO or Bigfoot.

Those that make the claims of UFOno's and Bigfeets need to prove it. The prosecution has the burden of proof. Raffaele does not have to prove his innocence. Just show me the actual proof that he is guilty. You are constantly asking us to prove innocence in the absence of proof of guilt. It doesn't work that way. Massei had 400+ pages to prove it and listed quite a lot of verbatim testimony and actual evidence. It proves that the court made an incorrect judgment and rendered a verdict that was not supported by proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
This.

Don't expect a rational answer.

LOL. You don't realize Alt-F4 made a perfect argument against the guilt.

Just replace UFOs and Yetis with "one of the most unusual crimes in history". Bear in mind that there is a perfectly normal explanation for that UFO of criminology, just like UFOs can be explained without going too otherworldly.
 
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No, it doesn't require a large and sophisticated conspiracy. Innocent people get jailed and sentenced sometimes; that's they way justice works. It's not perfect. There's a emperical basis for the claim that miscarriages of justice happens, and that this is seldom a result of a conspiracy. That is not a skeptic position. Knox and Sollecito acted suspiciously in the eyes of the police and that is all it takes to get the ball rolling. It hard to stop that ball after that. The police and prosecutors that were convinced of guilt from the get go will continue be convinced of guilt. That is human nature; we all want to be right. And like in many other cases there is evidence that can be interpreted as a sign of guilt, enough to convince the court. But it does not necessarily follows from that that it in reality is a sign of guilt. We can't be sure, because it's not a courts job to get to the truth and find out what really happened. Only a god could do that. Not human justice.

But this argument has been discussed ad nauseam and since it has a thread of its own, why not discuss it there? :)

This post, and many others like this, assume that there are a number of police who know the "truth" and simply remain silent. That is not a skeptic position.
 
By the way, there's one very interesting part of Guede's Skype conversation, where he is talking about Meredith screaming. He describes the scream taking place at " around 9.20, 9.30". I believe that he must have thought that others might have heard the scream, which is why needed to place it into his narrative. In other words, if there had been somebody nearby who had heard a scream at "9.20-9.30", Guede would be able to say that this tallied with his version of events.

I believe that Guede therefore knows full well when Meredith died, and that it was a lot closer to 9pm than 10pm. This of course tallies completely with Meredith being confronted very shortly after she returned to the cottage at around 8.55pm, with the fatal stabbing occurring at some time between 9.05pm and 9.30pm.
 
Those that make the claims of UFOno's and Bigfeets need to prove it. The prosecution has the burden of proof. Raffaele does not have to prove his innocence. Just show me the actual proof that he is guilty. You are constantly asking us to prove innocence in the absence of proof of guilt. It doesn't work that way. Massei had 400+ pages to prove it and listed quite a lot of verbatim testimony and actual evidence. It proves that the court made an incorrect judgment and rendered a verdict that was not supported by proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

_______________

Rose,

I can see you're not a Bigfooter.

1 Bigfoot + 1 Bigfoot = 2 Bigfoots.

HERE

///
 
This post, and many others like this, assume that there are a number of police who know the "truth" and simply remain silent. That is not a skeptic position.

I see quite the opposite there:
Paninaro said:
The police and prosecutors that were convinced of guilt from the get go will continue be convinced of guilt. That is human nature; we all want to be right.

Do you think all miscarriages of justice involve sophisticated conspiracy? I guess the answer is no. Then what makes you think this one must do?
 
There's another interesting part of Guede's Skype call, in which he discusses the doorbell ringing while he was in the bathroom:

"Then the doorbell rang. As far as I was concerned, it was one of the girls who lives with her (Meredith). So, I remained quietly in the bathroom"

Now why would Guede automatically think that a person ringing the doorbell would have been one of the other housemates? Surely the logical assumption would be that the housemates all carried their own keys to the door, and would therefore have no need to ring the doorbell. To most people, the ringing doorbell would imply that the person outside the front door was not a member of the household - the exact opposite to what Guede claims was his immediate assumption.

My opinion on this is that Guede most likely tried ringing the doorbell while he was casing the house, and he's weaving it into his narrative. He's also (in my view) taking the simultaneous opportunity to weave Knox into this narrative, by implying that it was Knox who was returning to the house while he was in the bathroom. Remember that Guede would have known all about Knox's/Sollecito's detention at the time he made this Skype call (on 18th or 19th November), so he already had a strong vested interest in linking them to the murder. That he chose such a gauche and unlikely way to do so (Knox ringing her own front door bell to be let in) is very telling, as far as I'm concerned.
 
"If only they could see the truth" - JFK conspiracy theorists

"If only they could see the truth" - 9/11 Truthers

"If only they could see the truth" - Obama Birthers

"If only they could see the truth" - Knoxties ?

Anyone see a pattern?


The word you'rel looking for is - Guilters
 
No, it doesn't require a large and sophisticated conspiracy. Innocent people get jailed and sentenced sometimes; that's they way justice works. It's not perfect. There's a emperical basis for the claim that miscarriages of justice happens, and that this is seldom a result of a conspiracy. That is not a skeptic position. Knox and Sollecito acted suspiciously in the eyes of the police and that is all it takes to get the ball rolling. It hard to stop that ball after that. The police and prosecutors that were convinced of guilt from the get go will continue be convinced of guilt. That is human nature; we all want to be right. And like in many other cases there is evidence that can be interpreted as a sign of guilt, enough to convince the court. But it does not necessarily follows from that that it in reality is a sign of guilt. We can't be sure, because it's not a courts job to get to the truth and find out what really happened. Only a god could do that. Not human justice.

But this argument has been discussed ad nauseam and since it has a thread of its own, why not discuss it there? :)

The cops believed the first officer on the scene who was suspicious that the break-in was staged, so much so that they did not even bother to take photo's of the glass on top of clothes and proceeded to let Filomena contaminate the scene. The court believed the cops over the defense arguments and expert despite not even bothering to show that the glass pattern could have been done in the way that they theorized. Because the cop is right and the defense expert is wrong.

The cops believed a newspaper fax that Raffaele called the cops after they had already arrived. Because they wanted to believe it. They believed the washing machine was still running or warm when the cops arrived, so much so that Mignini questioned all of them on it in court.

The court believed their shoe expert that had already made a pretty dumb mistake over the defense expert because he had to be right and the defense expert must be wrong.

The court believed their computer experts when they claimed Raffaele was not on his computer despite the fact that these same experts managed to fry 4 computers.

The court believed Curatolo because he was a bum as his testimony confirmed a version of facts they believed to be true.

The cops believed Amanda only on the occasion that she gave a version of facts they believed to be true. The cops believed "see you later" was a confirmation of an appointment because it confirmed a version the believed to be true.

The court believed Stefanoni's claim that there had never been any contamination in her lab because they are idiots.

Stefanoni believed her cranked up machine because she had to find something.

The court believed Nara because they believed there is no reason for her to say something if it did not happen and blithely ignored the proven probability that she may have just been mistaken or confused.

The court believed the Luminol prints were of blood even after the revelation of the negative TMB test because the cops can somehow recognize the bright-shineyness of a blood response even though scientific literature says the Luminol response would have been extremely weak to the point of near undetectable faintness when the dilution of blood exceeds the limit TMB can detect.

The court believed Quintavalle helped them to discover that their own officer was wrong about asking the shopkeeper about Amanda and Raffaele when he showed them the pictures of Amanda and Raffaele.

The court believed that Meredith spent an hour or three on her bed without changing clothes, playing with her cell phone, not calling her parents, simply because it fits the version of events that they believe to be the truth.

The Supreme court believed the pillow footprint was Raffaele's because the cops had said so and they believed Amanda's sweatshirt she wore that day was missing even though it was draped across her bed.
 
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I see quite the opposite there:


Do you think all miscarriages of justice involve sophisticated conspiracy? I guess the answer is no. Then what makes you think this one must do?

Why would he answer that? It is clear that is not his position. Ask someone that believes it.

More evasion. I'd like to see a rational explanation for a widespread conspiracy of many police and forensic scientists without anyone breaking ranks. Come on guys, this is an incompetent justice system after all.
 
More evasion. I'd like to see a rational explanation for a widespread conspiracy of many police and forensic scientists without anyone breaking ranks. Come on guys, this is an incompetent justice system after all.

Did you not read my post in reply to Paninaro?

Melville describes it this way:

"Come, Ahab’s compliments to ye; come and see if ye can swerve me. Swerve me? ye cannot swerve me, else ye swerve yourselves! man has ye there. Swerve me? The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Over unsounded gorges, through the rifled hearts of mountains, under torrents’ beds, unerringly I rush! Naught’s an obstacle, naught’s an angle to the iron way!"

They had a theory and set out to prove it. They believed they were right that Raffaele was guilty. Now just a matter of proving the case. Ignore evidence to the contrary, stretch minor things into something indicative of guilt, confirm the belief rather than disprove it.
 
shades of gray; the Willingham conspiracy

Evasion noted.

I've read countless posts about how police and forensic scientists were complicit in the framing of AK and RS. Is it too much to ask how many?

Or are you saying that there was no intentional wrong doing by the police and forensic scientists? Was there a conspiracy, yes or no? How many were involved? How have the conspirators all remained silent?

These are not hard questions.
lionking,

They are not easy questions. I have never said that there is evidence of outright evidence tampering, but I do not rule it out, either. I think what happened fell into a gray area where confirmation bias was going on subconsciously and where a certain amount of corner-cutting went on consciously: The police thought that they had the right suspects and were not too concerned about rigorous standards but did want to help the process along. I am not entirely sure what you mean by complicit, but I suppose that the number of people within ILE who think that AK and RS are innocent is small. I have previously posted many links to articles on forensic bias. Here is one more.

Not long ago I posted a list of people involved in the Duke lacrosse (pseudo) conspiracy. The same sort of list could be compiled for the Cameron Todd Willingham case. It would include about 10 appeals panels, his own attorney David Martin, Fire Marshall Vasquez, and Governor Rick Perry, who called Willingham a monster within the last two years after failing to stay his execution in 2005. It might also include one or more witnesses whose testimony changed over time, according to a fine David Grann article in The New Yorker. I don't really think that there was a giant conspiracy in Willingham's case any more than there was one in the Duke case (one must say that two people conspired in the DL case). I think that his first attorney was quite incompetent, and anyone who doubts this should check out his performance on Anderson Cooper's show some time. FM Vasquez had apparently never seen a fire that was not arson, if I understand his testimony correctly (more incompetence). Perry probably conspired with his newly appointed head of the Texas forensics commission John Bradley to slow down the inquiry in 2009, but that was just CYA and politics as usual.
 
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Call me Introna

The court believed that Meredith spent an hour or three on her bed without changing clothes, playing with her cell phone, not calling her parents, simply because it fits the version of events that they believe to be the truth.

Good discussion of tunnel vision and very appropriate Melville quote elsewhere.
 
By the way, I didn't rely on the PMF translation of Guede's Skype call in my posts here a couple of hours ago. Had I done so, I would have erroneously had him saying the scream was at "9.00-9.20 or so", rather than what he actually said (and what I wrote in my post), which was "9.20-9.30 or so". I actually listened to the original source audio, and translated it myself. Guede clearly says "penso le nove e venti, le nove e mezza cosi" ("I think 9.20-9.30 or so"), not "penso le nove, le nove e venti, cosi" ("I think 9.00-9.20 or so"). Since my post on this subject, Clander has corrected the mistranslation on PMF to tally with my translation.

It would be nice if people whose main existence seems to be to criticise posters rather than arguments would have a Stint at thinking before they start thumping the keypad with their two index fingers.......
 
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It seems to me that for all her faults, Nadeau knows her audience.

To a rational person her ad hominem remarks about "baby killers" are transparently irrational. As far as any evidence that has been presented goes a baby killer is no more or less likely to lie about the matter under review than an embezzler, rapist, abuser of prosecutorial power, shoplifter or any other jailbird.

However as you can see by the avidity with which the guilters have aped the "baby killer" meme, her target audience is a group of people inclined for whatever reason to experience a rush of gratification and switch their rational functions off when you push their hate button. Trigger their hate response and they'll eat out of your hand without ever stopping to think about what it is they are eating. Clever!

Nadeau is actually operating from the position of someone whose writing positioned herself so squarely in the guilt camp that she has difficulty moving out of it. She has never publicly retracted the many errors of fact she has committed in her writings. I hesitate to use the word "lies" which are defined as statements knowingly repeated as false for personal gain. I would attribute the "I was there" story of Vogt as a lie by the definition BTW. Her use of the "baby killer" mantra shows that she is going to go down with the ship, unlike some of the Brits who have shown a capacity to shift with new information.
 
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