Banning Incandescent Light Bulbs?

[This is The End]

No. The topic of the conversation is NOT whether light bulbs that no longer exist are tareted by this law. That would be ridiculous. The fact that you even think it applies to this thread is suspect.

Belz, you even bringing up that the bulbs don't "exist" is just weird, and I don't even know how to respond.

Go back to any year from 1900 to 1990. Remove every light bulb from every fixture in every house in the USA and put them into a pile. 99% of the total number of bulbs in that pile will be illegal to import or manufacture in a few years.

Obviously the pile of bulbs is not really sitting somewhere... I'm describing a category of bulbs, not whether or not every single one of them still exists in a landfill somewhere.

 

[Belz...]

Belz, you even bringing up that the bulbs don't "exist" is just weird, and I don't even know how to respond.

You're the one who brought it up, remember ? Bulbs from 1900-1990. How many of those bulbs, the actual items or the actual technology, are still in function here ?

 

[mhaze]

N....
- "All people are idiots".
- "No. Around 15-20% of them aren't."
- "That's a nitpick."
- "How is it a nitpick ? Your statement is WRONG!"
- "Well, you just wrote a word in all caps so you agree with me."
- "What ?"

"we're not banning dogs. I say it again, we're not banning dogs. You can have a dog, really. The law isn't meant to look authoritarizan or draconian. It's just dogs with four legs, you can't have those. But we're not banning dogs. Just so you know, we're really not banning dogs".

 

[This is The End]

You're the one who brought it up, remember ? Bulbs from 1900-1990. How many of those bulbs, the actual items or the actual technology, are still in function here ?

Around half of every bulb in my house, and everyone I know who hasn't switched all of their bulbs yet. Half of the aisle at Wal-Mart is still the old type incandescents. In a few years they will be illegal to manufacture and import.

You do know we are talking about a category of bulbs here right? The ones that have been in use since the invention of the light bulb? Obviously some of them don't work anymore.

If you want to talk extremes, then I could bring up the Livermore light bulb which has been on for over 100 years.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Obviously the pile of bulbs is not really sitting somewhere... I'm describing a category of bulbs, not whether or not every single one of them still exists in a landfill somewhere.

And I already explained to you why your claim that the law will ban 99% of the lightbulbs we've been using for decades is wrong.

The law only establishes energy efficiency guidelines for a a few lumen ranges (roughly equivalent to the lumen ranges of traditional incandescent bulbs 100 to 40 watts) of only standard base size, color, function, etc.

The kinds of bulbs excluded are listed here (but elsewhere I quoted the list in the text of the EISA):
http://applications.nam.lighting.philips.com/cmolegislation/index.php#4

Look around and I think you'll agree that excluded bulbs and bulbs outside the lumen ranges comprise waaaaaay more than 1% of bulbs in use.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

If you want to talk extremes, then I could bring up the Livermore light bulb which has been on for over 100 years.

And what percentage of lightbulbs in use are of that type?

And do you suppose the legislation in question will ban the Livermore light bulb?

 

[This is The End]

And I already explained to you why your claim that the law will ban 99% of the lightbulbs we've been using for decades is wrong.

I'm quite sure you haven't because this still stands:

Go back to any year from 1900 to 1990. Remove every light bulb from every fixture in every house in the USA and put them into a pile. 99% of the total number of bulbs in that pile will be illegal to import or manufacture in a few years.

 

[This is The End]

Look around and I think you'll agree that excluded bulbs and bulbs outside the lumen ranges comprise waaaaaay more than 1% of bulbs in use.

How many houses in those years do you think had any bulbs at all besides in lamps and in ceiling fixtures. It's probably closer to 100% than 99%.

 

[This is The End]

This is argument is getting quite circular, so I'm just going to re-state my position for now and be done with it:

As far as the ban goes:

Go back to any year from 1900 to 1990. Remove every light bulb from every fixture in every house in the USA and put them into a pile. A very large percentage (I'm guessing around 99%) of the total number of bulbs in that pile will be illegal to import or manufacture in a few years.

As far as why it is nitpicking to not call it a ban:

If the ban was only on a small percentage of light bulbs that everyone used since the invention of the light bulb, then it would be nitpicking to call it a ban.

Yet, since the ban is on a very large percentage of the light bulbs that everyone used since the invention of the light bulb, it would be nitpicking to not call it a ban.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

You do know we are talking about a category of bulbs here right? The ones that have been in use since the invention of the light bulb?

I think maybe you don't realize that lightbulb technology has NOT in fact remain unchanged since the invention of the bulb.

The first bulbs used carbon filaments. Later metalized carbon, then tantalum then osmium filaments were used. The tungsten filament was introduced in 1906 and produced in quantity since about 1910.

But even then, there have been many many changes and improvements in incandescent lightbulb technology over the years. Coiled filaments, filling the bulb with nitrogen or a vacuum. Stays on the filament to protect from vibrations. Filling the bulb with halogen, etc.

But. . . even if you're just talking about the overall basic concept of an incandescent bulb (and the halogen is indeed in that category), the law will still not ban 99% of them (see above).

Sodium-vapor and mercury-vapor* lights or other types of high-intensity discharge lamps, for example, have been the most widespread type of street light in use since probably about the 1970s. The law will not set energy efficient standards for them. Neon lights for signs have been around since about 1920, and the law will not affect them in any way. (And speaking of the unchanging history of the electric light, I just learned that the first electric street lights were carbon arc lamps.) And so on. . .

*Actually production of ballasts and fixtures for mercury vapor lights were banned in 2008 by a law passed in 2005.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

This is argument is getting quite circular, so I'm just going to re-state my position for now and be done with it:

As far as the ban goes:

Go back to any year from 1900 to 1990. Remove every light bulb from every fixture in every house in the USA and put them into a pile. A very large percentage (I'm guessing around 99%) of the total number of bulbs in that pile will be illegal to import or manufacture in a few years.

And I think I've made a solid case to show why your estimate of 99% is nowhere near the ballpark.

[ETA: OH yes--ballpark lights, park lights, billboard lights--all examples of lighting not affected by the EISA.]

 

[This is The End]

I think maybe you don't realize that lightbulb technology has NOT in fact remain unchanged since the invention of the bulb.

Another nitpick post by Joe. 99% all of those changes, that you claim make that 99% include different bulbs, are still types that will be banned.

 

[This is The End]

And I think I've made a solid case to show why your estimate of 99% is nowhere near the ballpark.

[ETA: OH yes--ballpark lights, park lights, billboard lights--all examples of lighting not affected by the EISA.]

So ballparks are in peoples homes now? You're not even making sense any more with your nitpicks.


Get a group of average people that are from 40 to 100 years old. 99% of every single bulb they replaced in their homes over the course of their lives up to maybe 10 years ago are soon to be banned. I don't see how you can deny that.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Try just this math: count the standard size, shape type lightbulbs in your house (just the ones that would be affected by the EISA energy efficiency regulations). Did you make it to about 400? If not, I can show you easily that your 99% figure is wrong.

That bulb in the refrigerator? Excluded. The sewing machine light? Excluded. The porch light? Excluded. Reflector lights? Excluded? 3 way light bulb? Excluded. Chandelier "candle" light bulbs? Excluded. The bulbs in the traffic light nearest your home? Excluded.

[ETA: The bulb inside your oven? Excluded. The bulb inside your microwave oven? Excluded. The bulb on your bench grinder on the workbench? Excluded. Any oversized bulb or bulb with other than a standard medium Edison base? Excluded. Also, any energy-compliant bulb already in use--such as CFLs--will not be "banned"--and by now they account for a lot of in-home lightbulbs.]

So, surely I've found at least 4 bulbs that are not affected by the ban in ratio to the number of bulbs you have counted in your house that will be subject to the guidelines. If you didn't come up with 400, then your 99% estimate is wrong. (And this is ignoring the fact that there are compliant incandescents already on the market.)

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

So ballparks are in peoples homes now? You're not even making sense any more with your nitpicks.


Get a group of average people that are from 40 to 100 years old. 99% of every single bulb they replaced in their homes over the course of their lives up to maybe 10 years ago are soon to be banned. I don't see how you can deny that.

Do the math. You're nowhere near correct--not even if you ignore all exterior lights.

You'd need to come up with at least 400 bulbs in your house that will be subject to the guidelines. [ETA: Really 99 for every single bulb that isn't subject to the standards. If you find 10 such bulbs, you'd need 999 other bulbs to offset them in order to keep your pulled-out-of-thin-air 99% figure.]

(And again, they won't be banned from sale or use. No one will ever come into your house and require you to change a lightbulb.)

By the way, I suggest you look up the work "nitpick". I think you're misusing it.

 

[Bri]

You must have missed the "and not banned" part:

Just because other things are banned as well, or that are not banned, does not make it not a ban.​

(bold mine) Are you no longer claiming that it's a ban on those old-style inefficient incandescents? You keep going back and forth. If you've changed your claim to just "it's a ban" then please specify what it's a ban of.

If your claim is that it's a ban on those old-style inefficient incandescents, then your argument above is wrong.

If some old-style inefficient incandescents are not banned, then it's not a ban on old-style inefficient incandescents (which implies that all of those bulbs are banned). If I say that leash laws ban unleashed dogs, then it implies that all unleashed dogs are banned, not just some dogs.

If other types of inefficient bulbs are also banned then it's not a ban on old-style inefficient incandescents (which implies that those are being singled out). If I say that a leash law bans unleashed schnauzers, it implies that schnauzers are being singled out.

Which brings us back to the question at hand: what are you claiming the standards are banning?

-Bri

 

[Belz...]

"we're not banning dogs. I say it again, we're not banning dogs. You can have a dog, really. The law isn't meant to look authoritarizan or draconian. It's just dogs with four legs, you can't have those. But we're not banning dogs. Just so you know, we're really not banning dogs".

I'm sure you'll now explain how the incandescents that will now be legal are not really incandescents.

 

[Belz...]

Around half of every bulb in my house, and everyone I know who hasn't switched all of their bulbs yet. Half of the aisle at Wal-Mart is still the old type incandescents. In a few years they will be illegal to manufacture and import.

And how are those new, legal bulbs so different from the older ones ? How will this impede on your liberties ?

 

[Belz...]

Another nitpick post by Joe. 99% all of those changes, that you claim make that 99% include different bulbs, are still types that will be banned.

"No, no, no, no, no !!! Nah nah nah !! I can't hear you ! IT'S A BAN !!!!"

 

[mhaze]

Originally Posted by mhaze
"we're not banning dogs. I say it again, we're not banning dogs. You can have a dog, really. The law isn't meant to look authoritarizan or draconian. It's just dogs with four legs, you can't have those. But we're not banning dogs. Just so you know, we're really not banning dogs".

I'm sure you'll now explain how the incandescents that will now be legal are not really incandescents.

Hey, buddy...

I'm stocking up on three legged dogs.

You can too.

I know you want to.