Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Poppy1016]

Alt, do you at least agree that if Amanda had legal council from the beginning, that things would never have escalated to the point of arrest? Do you agree that the interrogation should have been recorded? It certainly would have cleared up many problems. Will you agree to reasonable doubt if the credibility of the DNA evidence is destroyed? Just wondering.

 

[Kaosium]

http://studentsabroad.state.gov/emergencies/arrestedabroad.php

See anything in there regarding the right to obtain evidence?

Let's start with these:

# We protest allegations of abuse against American prisoners

# We work to ensure that Americans are afforded due process under local laws

# We work with prison officials to ensure treatment consistent with internationally recognized standards of human rights

All of these would suggest the consulate ought to have said something when this became public:

I want to make clear that I'm very doubtful of the verity of my statements because they were made under the pressures of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion. Not only was I told I would be arrested and put in jail for 30 years, but I was also hit in the head when I didn't remember a fact correctly.

They should have gone to the appropriate Italian authorities and investigated whether there was any truth to the matter. If Italian officials refused to cooperate with such a reasonable and legal request, they should have gone up the chain of command until they found someone who would. Since all the Italian officials should have to do is just show them the tape as required by law, any refusal to do so would suggest there's something rotten in the state of Umbria.

Again, what specifically what did they didn't do?

# protesting mistreatment or abuse to the appropriate authorities;

If we send a perfectly nice and sane honor-roll student overseas and she writes a note like this that suggests in the hands of the police she is not entirely in control of her faculties, and notes conditions that suggest mistreatment, coercion and violation of Italy's laws they had a duty to inquire about it, and find out the truth of the matter.

Again, based on U.S., Italian and international laws, what was supposed to be done by U.S. Consular officers?

Call the Pentagon, have them load up the proper materials in a squadron of BUFFs and initiated 'Operation Pigspit over Perugia,' of course.


Otherwise it's quite simple: their jobs.

 

[Mary_H]

Can you tell us when the embassy was notified after Amanda's pre-6am arrest, who contacted them and what their initial response was?

The document you provided says they were notified of her detention on the 6th. It doesn't say who notified them. They were notified of her arrest on the 9th. They describe their response as a visit on the 12th.

Again, is there any evidence that Amanda was treated any differently than other American arrested in Italy in 2007? How you would have acted as a consulate officer at that time and place is of no significance.

The question is not whether she was treated differently from other American detainees. The question is whether the response to her extraordinary case was adequate.

As an American citizen and taxpayer, I expect the employees of the US State Department to have the superior skills it requires to be hired for that job.

This has nothing to do with the job of the the U.S. State Department or the U.S. Consular officers in Italy.

It absolutely does. Ian Kelly stated many times that it is the responsibility of the consulate to ensure American citizens are treated fairly under Italian law. At least three laws were broken.

Why not?

Because we would have seen or heard about it; no doubt it would have been mentioned in the letter.

Find out. If you're curious file a Freedom of Information request, since this informtion isn't classified you will probably get it (though it might take awhile - like the legal system in Italy).

Looks to me like that's already been done. Items 3-6, 8 and 15-16 are redacted.

 

[Alt+F4]

Alt, do you at least agree that if Amanda had legal council from the beginning, that things would never have escalated to the point of arrest?

Not sure what you mean by "the beginning" as the laws in Italy regarding legal council are different from those in the U.S.

Do you agree that the interrogation should have been recorded?

Was it required by law?

Will you agree to reasonable doubt if the credibility of the DNA evidence is destroyed? Just wondering.

Whether I agree that there is reasonable doubt or not in this case means nothing at all.

 

[Poppy1016]

Amen Mary. As usual your statements are spot on and concise

 

[Fine]

They weren't accusing her of murder at the time, at least as far as she knew. The police were telling her they had 'hard evidence' she was at the cottage at the time, that Raffaele had said she went out that night which she didn't remember at all, and that she must have 'repressed' the memory of the murder, and that they were convinced she was 'protecting someone.' Over and over during the course of about three hours from 10:40 PM or so on November 5th, to 1:45 AM on the 6th. Alternating between yelling and screaming at her and calling her names, to cajoling her to help them find the murderer of her friend. She'd been with police almost every waking hour from the discovery of the murder, 52 of about 90 hours total from the afternoon of the second until she was arrested at 5:45 AM on the sixth, upon which time she started her note.

It might be easier to explain if she'd been on hash when she walked into the Questura (the police station where she was questioned) like Raffaele was, but there's no evidence of that, nor has it been contended. It is possible she was hit harder than what I personally suspect, and that perhaps it caused some head trauma, but she didn't seem to suggest that either in her note or on the stand. Possible doesn't become probable in my world just because it makes the case better--Massei should take notes!

If you get an opportunity it might help to watch these two videos which is (part of) her testimony in English. Later she switches to Italian and you can find the transcripts of that and the previous English testimony as well here. It also affords a look at what she's really like, and what I mean by just a little offbeat, but basically just a girl. She'd be entirely normal around here, but some look at her and see a monster. Her quickly changing expressions at times were captured by photographers to produce very unflattering and sinister-looking photographs to help build the myth of 'Foxy Knoxy.' See what you think, if you have a chance.

Here's a rather thorough paper on the concept of an internalized false confession, how they are produced, and what sort of conditions make subjects more vulnerable to them. What Amanda experienced was a rather mild form, some confess to murders and walk the interrogators through an imaginary sequence of events step-by-step of their own volition. She didn't do that, she simply believed for a while she must have been there, after all why would the cops lie about having 'hard evidence' of her at the scene, or Raffaele lie about her going out? Perhaps what she'd been told to imagine was real, and she actually did repress the memory like they said?

_________________________

Kaosium,

Amanda's failure to recognize she'd had a concussion was just another symptom of her concussion...............

"Concussion may be under-diagnosed. The lack of the highly noticeable signs and symptoms that are frequently present in other forms of head injury could lead clinicians to miss the injury, and athletes may cover up their injuries to remain in the competition.[27] A retrospective survey in 2005 found that more than 88% of concussions go unrecognized." Concussion

///

 

[Mary_H]

Amen Mary. As usual your statements are spot on and concise

Thank you, Poppy. I liked Kaosium's last post a lot, too.

 

[Poppy1016]

Alt, if you believe there was reasonable doubt to any degree, then you must agree that they should have been acquitted.

 

[Poppy1016]

I agree Mary, Koasium does a great job also. Rose also is very well versed in the case, as is Halides1. I have learned a lot from all of you here at JREF.

 

[Alt+F4]

They should have gone to the appropriate Italian authorities and investigated whether there was any truth to the matter.

U.S. Consular officers have no power of investigation. That is a job for her lawyers.

If Italian officials refused to cooperate with such a reasonable and legal request, they should have gone up the chain of command until they found someone who would.

It's not a legal request.

Since all the Italian officials should have to do is just show them the tape as required by law, any refusal to do so would suggest there's something rotten in the state of Umbria.

What law?

 

[Alt+F4]

Alt, if you believe there was reasonable doubt to any degree, then you must agree that they should have been acquitted.

I didn't say I thought there was reasonable doubt (you are new and my thoughts on the case are complicated), I said what I believe doesn't matter at all.

 

[Poppy1016]

Let me rephrase Alt. If anyone believes their was reasonable doubt, they should also agree that AK and RS should have been a acquitted. Yes I am new here and my comments and opinions are not meant to offend anyone. I needed both sides of the argument before forming my opinion, so I have to respect all comments and opinions.

 

[Poppy1016]

BTW, what exactly does being new have to do with anything lol

 

[Alt+F4]

Amanda's failure to recognize she'd had a concussion was just another symptom of her concussion

So now we've gone from cuffed, to a possbile concussion to "recognition that she had a concussion". Amazing...it's this type of spin that makes me sure that in August, September, October or maybe in early 2012 AK and RS will have their convictions upheld. There is no way to see so many lies tossed about if folks really believed they were innocent and there was no evidence against them at all, as I'm constantly being told.

I'll be back to this thread when the convictions are upheld, not to gloat but to see if most of these same posters will continue their vain effort to follow AK and RS through their (at least) 18 month journey through the Italian Supreme Court, in which they will also lose.

 

[PhantomWolf]

It doesn't.

But half of the Faoker arguments found on the claim that they never happened.

The other half that they are the only reason she was convicted.

Really? Exactly which arguments are founded on anything to do with cartwheels?

 

[Kaosium]

U.S. Consular officers have no power of investigation. That is a job for her lawyers.

OK, I change that to 'look into it.' If I recall correctly I originally said 'ask' or 'request'--something like that. I know they can't just flash a badge and go rattling cages like Dirty Harry. What they can do is attempt to find out of there's any merit to what she said, with phone calls. If that doesn't settle it, they can talk to someone more important.

Doing nothing is a dereliction of duty.

It's not a legal request.

Yes it is!

How can you possibly argue with Judge Heavey on this, he's a judge! With robes and everything! He even has sinister stationary! He might be a little off regarding the details of the case, but wouldn't ya think he'd know what consular officials duties entailed before he went and wrote the Big Man himself?

What law?

141-bis, I posted it about five pages back now. The Italian authorities are required to tape interrogations, and having seen that note an obvious description of a legitimate interrogation that should have raised some eyebrows. Even more so if they got some Texas two-step about her being a 'witness' and they 'forgot.'

 

[Mary_H]

Looking at the website of the US Diplomatic Mission to Italy, I found a link to the "Prisoner's Guide" and this item:

Alcohol

At meal time, you can drink a maximum of one half liter of wine or one liter of beer a day. Outside meal time, alcoholic beverages are not permitted. It is not permitted for someone to mail you alcohol.

So, a liter is about a quart, and if you had a quart of beer at lunch and another one at dinner...every day.....

ETA: Oops, I just realized I made a booboo -- you get only one liter of beer per day, not per meal. Still... you could get a 1/2 pint of wine at lunch and 1/2 pint of wine at dinner...I wonder if they put it in those little cafeteria milk cartons.

 

[Poppy1016]

That is hilarious Mary

 

[RandyN]

dbl

 

[RandyN]

Once again Alt thank you for the response. I can't for the life of me understand why the judge overlooked these rights violations. Not allowing legal representation and failure to record the interrogations, seem like game changing things to me. I assume that Massei did not feel Amanda's were violated or he would have taken action on these

Who makes assumptions about the honesty of Massei? Did you read the report? Overlooking these two issues was a walk in the park for this moron. He actually made things up and in his "findings of fact" (see how that part is in quotes?) he uses the words theory often. In theory he is a lying liar who couldnt judge his way out of a wet paper sack.

Massei also ignored the Supreme Court. How about that one? He ignored the defense request to review the DNA. He ignored the defense complaint that they did not receive all DNA data. He ignored the fact that police hit a girl.

Italian police hit a girl! Such heros. Its on the tape they forgot to record...which is attached to the burned up hard drives, which is connected to the lie of police that they arrived before RS called the police, who then found a warm, spinning wash machine, as the defendants stood off in the distance glancing about in a murdereous manner, whiole holding a mop and bucket, which was later professionally gift wrapped by Steffanoni, who forgot to find any defendant DNA on the first pass and so returned in 6 weeks to find the required DNA although in a low copy number which went along perfectly with the double DNA knife that the defendant carried in her bag to the unpremediated murder which was not witnessed by Toto who did see the defendants from 9 until 12 which gives them both a perfect alibi except Toto sees masks and busses in a drug induced haze but he is a good Christian and so is the lying liar Mignini who made up 3 , no 4 , no 5 motives so far....yes your hero Massei ignored all these things...But then you are still assuming I suppose as all true and good assumers do...OH well ...they must be guilty after all...

I wish someone here on JREF would translate these PMF'ers fake names into the fake names they use there. I have been banned there for arguing against guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I think they banned me because my arguments are too strong and theirs is so very weak...weak as water ...thats what Mrs Slocume would say.