Insulting Ad about Nurses by Johnson and Johnson

[MG1962]

Quit what? Do you suggest I should fake my opinion to conform to the group, or just pretend I don't have one?

No because you are nashing your teeth over nothing. Human emotion has no place in medicine? Good luck with that

 

[caniswalensis]

You Damn nurses!


...always after my lucky charms!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think you need to turn down the gain on your woo detector.

I think you need to turn up the 'gain'? on your framing science analyzer.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No because you are nashing your teeth over nothing. Human emotion has no place in medicine? Good luck with that

Now you've lost me further.

 

[CaveDave]

Y'know, honestly, I don't think either one really makes sense. To me, "stacking the deck" means cheating, or in other words, guaranteeing the outcome of something that otherwise would have a random possibility of occurring, through some special manipulation.

In medicine, I don't think that's possible. There's always a bell curve, or something similar, that gives a range of possible outcomes, but no way to cheat or guarantee.
That's part of what bothers me about the commercial. It implies that good luck charms or similar paranormal things are more powerful than science, and can "cheat" the odds, when the scientific odds would already in theory take into account everything that would affect the patient's chances, including the compassion of nurses, his attitude, etc.

And if the patient's outcome might be marginally improved by allowing them their beliefs, what harm?

yes. but they didn't use a child as the patient or a teddy bear, did they? They didn't actually say "compassion", right?

Where does the annoying habit come from to keep twisting and turning what somebody does to the point where whatever remains can be interpreted in a way that it at least almost sane?

Yeah, sometimes happens...

Depends on who is doing the talking. If its some loony woo-ster I'd assume the latter. If it was someone I assumed had a rational science-based mindset then I'd assume the former. Up until I started reading the responses in this thread I would have put nurses in the "rational science-based mindset" category. That pretty much describes the nurses I've dealt with. But, apparently my experience is not typical.

To be honest, neither.

Let me rephrase your question:
Which aspect of nursing do you believe J&J, a supplier of science-based medical supplies, considers valuable enough to fund a national advertising campaign: Compassion or good luck charms?
Since it is so easily misinterpreted the ad was arguably a poor choice, but to think they are actively promoting good luck charms is quite a stretch.

I might be projecting. If I saw that the person had a lucky charm I would give it back to him, knowing full well that the charm itself had no power. The wording of the commercial was poor to say the least. I will admit that the not taking any chances phrase could have been worded much better.

It comes from the same place that twisting and turning what someones does or says to the point that it becomes a perceived insult. It's called "being human". Some posters here ought to try it sometime. Going through life absolutely sure that you're correct in everything you think (bun not necessarily everything you do) has got to be a strain...

I think you need to turn down the gain on your woo detector.

Cheers,

Dave

 

[JohnnyG]

I think you need to turn up the 'gain'? on your framing science analyzer.

How original.

 

[MG1962]

Now you've lost me further.

Why do placebos exist?

 

[Belz...]

If you hadn't pointed out it could be interpreted as the nurse supporting superstitition, I wouldn't have thought of it. I interpreted the action as showing compassion, trying to make the patient feel better, etc., even if the nurse found the ideas silly.

Now I'm conflicted. Someone could easily interpret it the first way.

Yes, there is more than one interpretation, here. I don't see why Johnson and Johnson would support superstition. If they do, however, it's pretty silly. What's in it for them ?

 

[Belz...]

This is also quite true. I have noticed that medical people, especially Physicians, tend to be more prone to Religion and other Superstitious Beliefs more often than most other "People of Science"

Doctors apply science done by others. They usually don't actually do science.

 

[Pup]

And if the patient's outcome might be marginally improved by allowing them their beliefs, what harm?

But that's not outside of science, if it can be shown to marginally improve their outcome, whether it's due to a more positive attitude or whatever.

That's my point: if it works, it's already part of science, and already factored into the odds of a positive outcome, as much as giving antibiotics or physical therapy.

If it doesn't work, but the nurse think it'll cheat the odds anyway, that's where the woo comes in.

 

[Pup]

Yes, there is more than one interpretation, here. I don't see why Johnson and Johnson would support superstition. If they do, however, it's pretty silly. What's in it for them ?

It shows they're "human" and not just made up of those cold, uncaring scientists.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Why do placebos exist?

Is this a game?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

And if the patient's outcome might be marginally improved by allowing them their beliefs, what harm?...
Cheers,

Dave

There's actually science behind nursing actions involving supporting a patient's belief system. One must compromise between supporting those beliefs and confronting them. It's part of what we do.

For example, to get a patient to actually comply with a treatment regimen one might incorporate the patient's beliefs about curanderas or other cultural beliefs. You would want to work with the patient, not against the patient.

You would want to acknowledge in a non-judgmental way these kinds of things because you don't want the patient hiding information from you. For example, some supplements interact with prescription drugs. If you are judgmental the patient will likely just nopt tell you they are taking other things.

But if you have an anti-vaxer parent, there are ways to confront the false beliefs and in such a case, you might want to do that.

Compassion is not a bad thing, nor is it NOT part of nursing science. It's just that communicating the image is an important matter in nursing separate from the science of nursing.

 

[Jeff Corey]

Do you really think J&J is trying to advocate lucky charms as an impoartant aspect of nursing?

No, these are probably not effective for most ailments. http://www.productwiki.com/upload/images/lucky_charms.png But giving a person something that they carried around that might make them feel better is something I would do. What's the harm?

 

[Emet]

What's the harm?

Nuttin', honey.

 

[truethat]

I didn't take it to mean that the nurse believes in superstition, but when she noticed the four leaf clover she realized that the patient may be a believer. She puts it in his hand for his reassurance, not because she is superstitious. The ad is basically saying that compassion is an important part of nursing in addition to science.

I think this ad is a trivial thing to go on a rampage about. If Johnson & Johnson were marketing a four leaf clover for the enhanced treatment of ER patients, yes...I'll stand with you. But this? Meh.

I totally agree. What a silly thing to get up in arms about Skeptic, I mean if she picked out the four leaf clover from a good luck bin at the nurses station that might make sense for you to interpret it as if she was saying "I got all this science behind me but a little superstition never hurt anyone."


They showed that it was his keys falling out, it was his key chain. If he has a lucky charm she's gonna give it to him. This is showing her compassion.


I mean you could make an issue if you wanted to, because what is the point of the ad?

 

[MG1962]

Is this a game?

I take it from your obtuse responses you know you are wrong. A placebo has as much effect as a good luck charm. Placebos are used to identify the people who are talking themselves into getting better and those who are physically responding to the treatment.

The nurse placing that good luck charm in the hand of the patient is no reflection of the nurses belief system. It is however an indication of her dedication to her field that she plays any card no matter how small to improve the lot of the patient. But thats a positive message so you will clearly will refuse to see it

 

[Zelenius]

Wow.

Reactions like this could give skeptics a bad name. I fail to see what was so offensive about this ad, since it could be interpreted in many ways. There is no reason for J&J to be promoting woo or lucky charms; it's a big stretch to claim this is an endorsement of woo or anti-science in any way.

Yeah, okay that "stacking the deck" bit while returning a patients shamrock is the height of woo and superstition promotion. To me, it just seems to be celebrating compassionate nursing, which I guess is now considered a form of new age quackery to one or more skeptics on this forum. I suppose a more competent, skeptical nurse would have been like the solipsistic, anti-woo nitpickers on this board, who, in a situation identical to the nurse in the ad would have just thrown away the lucky charm(even if they knew it belonged to the injured patient), since it would be bad medicine to return a patient's personal possession to him if it is obviously related to a superstitious belief. Obviously, helping a badly injured patient feel emotionally better is not known to affect medical outcomes.

Anyhow, I'm far more disturbed by the continued infiltration of quackery into medical schools and hospitals, but that's just me.

 

[ConspicuousCarl]

I didn't take it to mean that the nurse believes in superstition, but when she noticed the four leaf clover she realized that the patient may be a believer. She puts it in his hand for his reassurance, not because she is superstitious.

I don't understand how people can be missing the obvious point of the narration. She very clearly contrasts science with a lucky charm to "stack the deck". Stacking the deck refers to something done to alter the physical outcome, not something you do just for symbolism.

If the last line had been something like "...but I also believe in emotional support", then I would agree.

 

[Myriad]

I think the ad developers made a very careful choice of what object to use, and nine out of ten ad agencies would make the same choice given the same basic outline of the ad, e.g. that the patient is an adult male. They chose the four leaf clover because it's simple and iconic, like just about everything in video ads.

Imagine trying to compose the ad with a picture of his wife instead of the four leaf clover. Can we see what the picture shows on video? We need a zoom-in, extra time and extra motion. How do we even know it's his wife? What was the picture doing there? Why put it in his hand, it's non-tactile paper and wouldn't it just get crushed? All these distractions would be introduced, or extra time spent setting the scene up to avoid them, when every second is at a premium.

The phrasing "stacking the deck" isn't perfect but what other wording would be? Again, there's about one second to get the idea across, and I always hesitate to criticize wording unless I can think of better wording under the same constraints. In this case I can't so far. (I'll keep thinking about it though. "...stacking every +1 modifier I can" might work, if everyone were D&D players, but even that's more than a second longer.)

The ad director's task was something like, show a nurse performing a not medically necessary but thoughtful and compassionate act that's visually clear within a few seconds after also showing her performing emergency medical procedures, with her voice-over describing a philosophy of care that calls attention to both aspects in turn. Not easy.

Respectfully,
Myriad