Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[lane99]

...I guess she learned how to deal with the cops this way hosting loud parties in Seattle...

Right, that must be it

BTW, souldonut, with regards to Ludmila Ilina case:

Not sure if you realize (I didn't, from just reading the program description on the 5th estate website) that she is no longer incarcerated. She has been out of prison (and on parole) for some time now.

 

[Antony]

My theory of the footprint, is if he in fact did rape her, then he couldn't do it with his pants on or at the min buttoned up. So if he got blood on himself while doing the deed, he probably would have wanted to wash it off before putting/pulling his pants back on/up. Thus Guede would have walked in the bathroom cleaned himself up left a bloody footprint on the rug while drying off and then redressed before leaving the bathroom.

Maybe, maybe not. The reason I liked the trouser-rinsing explanation is because the "tail" of the print is slightly irregular, and not quite the shape normally made by the outer edge of the foot (see http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/footprints-03.html). Also this answers the query from Danceme as to why there is no print of the heel anywhere in the bathroom - which would be off the side of the bathmat if the print were simply the outline of the foot that made it.

The other reason to think this is the truth is that Guede apparently had a soaked trouser-leg after leaving the murder scene. Better from his POV to have wet trousers than with recognisable blood on them.

Either way there are decidedly more indications to show what might have happened, than the Mignini fairy-tale, with a video animation for the benefit of the jury.

 

[lane99]

...The prosecution need to fabricate some story to the effect that the break-in must have been staged...

Even that would not be remotely good enough, right? The must show it was staged BY Knox and/or the boyfriend.

And, as weak as the evidence and arguments that it was staged at all are, if there are any supposedly pointing *specifically* to the couple, I'm assuming they would be even weaker.

...Raffaele and Amanda sure faked a break-in the hard way, if they faked a break-in at all.

Point taken. I agree with your implied conclusion, though not entirely with the route you took to get there since, in theory, I see no reason to exclude the possibility that a stager would break a window from the inside. Entirely plausible.

On the other hand, that a stager would attempt to implicate an entry point that on the surface seems virtually impossible to get through, is an extremely dubious proposition.

And the level of incredulity regarding Knox supposedly staging the scene, only rises as you delve further into the known circumstances.

 

[babycondor]

Ok, I'd like to employ an oft used tactic on this board and ask you to list these repeatedly rejected requests.
I can only bring to mind the last minute request to test the stain on the pillowcase, which was refused, and which the defense had known existed for many months without requesting the test.
How many more rejected requests were there like this?

Off the top of my head, I recall reading that the defense requested the electronic files from Stefanoni's DNA testing and that request was refused. (Or maybe I am confusing this request with the one made in the appeal.)

Anyway I'm sure others will have more to add.

 

[RoseMontague]

Ok, I'd like to employ an oft used tactic on this board and ask you to list these repeatedly rejected requests.
I can only bring to mind the last minute request to test the stain on the pillowcase, which was refused, and which the defense had known existed for many months without requesting the test.
How many more rejected requests were there like this?

The audiometric test for one. The microsomethinganother test on the hairlike fibers. The additional computer testing at the manufacturers. There is one I am missing but it will come to me.

 

[RoseMontague]

I forgot they did ask for independent expert DNA testing in the first trial as well (the prosecution experts are not independent despite claims by The Machine).

 

[PhantomWolf]

Looks like Babycondor and Rose beat me to it,

The ones I was thinking of were the DNA testing, the Computers, the audiometric testing and the pillow stain.

 

[Antony]

Ok, I'd like to employ an oft used tactic on this board and ask you to list these repeatedly rejected requests.

Would you care in your turn to answer my earlier questions about the prosecution's "body of evidence" and about what you find "inexplicable" about the case, viewed from the innocence side?

I would say that if the prosecution's "evidence" is well-known and well-discussed (as you claim), then the list of rejected defence requests in the initial trial is also well-known, and much less contentious.

 

[RoseMontague]

Left another one out: (From Massei)

In particular, a medico-legal expert report was requested, with the aim of ascertaining in terms of greater practicability in respect of the indications furnished: the time of death of Meredith Kercher (once a time band narrower than that indicated by the technical consultants of the Prosecutor or of the panel of experts under the preliminary investigations judge [the GIP]

That one is very interesting, I had forgotten about it.

 

[LondonJohn]

Left another one out: (From Massei)



That one is very interesting, I had forgotten about it.

I hadn't forgotten about it. Nor had I forgotten Massei's reason for denying every single one of the defence teams' requests for additional testing or testimony:

The Court disallowed all the requests, on the grounds that the additional expert reports requested did not appear necessary, since the very ample dialectic contribution from the expert witnesses of the private parties offered sufficient material to take a position without additional expertise.

(Massei, English trans, p21)

In the light of what's already turning up in the first appeal, it's becoming increasingly obvious that Massei presided over an incompetent court, which seemed less interested in applying justice than it was in satiating the public - and media - clamour for a guilty verdict. It's truly shocking (and that's not hyperbole).

 

[LondonJohn]

That's very interesting. In my only semi-professional capacity, I'd say it would be unlikely for anyone to be able to force someone to swallow a piece of mushroom without there being some mushroom caught on the teeth. If Meredith had swallowed it voluntarily, as you say, she would have had to have been killed within a ridiculously short time for it not to have reached her stomach.

My big question there is, was the mushroom raw or cooked, and was there any mushroom lying around in the flat? I could see someone just returning home, and seeing some raw mushroom, snacking on a small piece. Or even, for some bizarre reason, a murderer forcing his victim to swallow a piece that was close at hand (though bear in mind what I said about the teeth in that case). Either scenario seems very implausible though.

If the mushroom was cooked, and if there was mushroom in the pizza (pretty likely, but do we know?), then it seems to me to be a no-brainer that it was partially regurgitated during the struggle, or even slipped into the oesophagus through the relaxing cardiac sphincter after death.

Which merely underlines the fact that the time between eating the pizza and death was relatively short.

Rolfe.

I believe there was an opened packet of mushrooms in the fridge at Meredith's cottage. My belief is that Meredith probably arrived home, and went straight to the fridge and took a mushroom. As she was eating the mushroom, she began to dial her mother's UK mobile number from her UK-registered mobile while walking back towards her bedroom. At that point, she either heard Guede in the bathroom, or Guede confronted her. She cut off the call to her mother (before it had had a chance to connect to the cellular network) in order to deal with this unexpected interruption.

I believe that the whole episode between Guede and Meredith was likely very brief and violent. I think that either he may have demanded that she let him out of the flat and she refused to do so, or he decided on a sexual advance/attack from the very beginning of the confrontation. Either way, I think he had the knife at her throat within a minute (maximum) of the terminated mobile call, and that it was no more than a minute or two later that he stabbed her in the throat (possibly when she called out and/or resisted him trying to remove her clothing to facilitate his sexual assault).

I therefore think that it's entirely possible that Meredith was stabbed in the throat by around 9pm (the mobile call was dialled and terminated at 8.56pm), which would have led to brain stem death by 9.15pm. This would also tend to be supported by the discovery of a single piece of mushroom in her oesophagus - the mushroom was either still transiting down to the stomach or (more likely) was regurgitated from the cardia (first area of the stomach beyond the oesophagus) back into the oesophagus during the attack - a known physiological reaction to extreme fright.

 

[katy_did]

Those were theories bandied around on forums. I don't recall any actual trial information where the defense requested a test and the judge refused. It was even discussed as being a piece of mushroom by Raffaele's expert.

The theory about it being a slice of apple rather than a mushroom is definitely put forward in Raffaele's appeal, along with a request that it be tested: they say that there were similar pieces of food found in Meredith's stomach, supporting the idea it was an apple slice, and also that when Lalli did the autopsy he knew she had eaten a vegetable pizza, so his guess that it was a mushroom was partly based on that. Not too sure whether the defence requested this testing during the trial as well, though.

 

[LondonJohn]

Clearly there is a lack of professionalism and training. I would like to know if the mess was made by the forensics team from Rome or the locals. My guess is that most of it is due to the locals. Who has a picture of the dumpster they used to get rid of the mess? It shows lack of respect for the crime scene and lack of respect for the belongings of others.

I still feel a mixture of sadness and disgust when I think about that video of the "crack" forensics team cramming Meredith's belongings into her suitcase with a total lack of delicacy or decorum, and when I hear Meredith's father say that they got very little back at all from the Perugia police (not even the presents that Meredith was known to have brought for them and had stored in her room).

 

[LondonJohn]

The theory about it being a slice of apple rather than a mushroom is definitely put forward in Raffaele's appeal, along with a request that it be tested: they say that there were similar pieces of food found in Meredith's stomach, supporting the idea it was an apple slice, and also that when Lalli did the autopsy he knew she had eaten a vegetable pizza, so his guess that it was a mushroom was partly based on that. Not too sure whether the defence requested this testing during the trial as well, though.

Obviously if it turns out to be apple from the apple crumble, then (as Rolfe point out) it lends even more weight to a ToD close to 9pm. I would like to think, however, that Lalli could have differentiated between apple and mushroom - they have very different textures and cell structures.

 

[Kaosium]

[CODE][CODE]

[/CODE][/CODE]
I'm not here to argue guilt, just to see if it's possible to ascertain what really happened, although you have indicated the actual details don't interest you.
I don't think Stefanoni lied, neither does Frank Sfarzo. She did not have any reason to lie. I don't buy the whole scared for her job thing. A negative TMB test happens 50% of the time.

Irrelevant details don't really interest me, I confess.

If Stefanoni didn't lie, then they weren't blood and who cares? If she saw the distinctive CL pattern pure blood gives off then there's no chance they were blood, as you cannot get that with blood diluted below the 1:1M (million) threshold of TMB, which as you recall was negative...and which she failed to reveal in court until they got caught at it months later.

What Dr. Gino meant about the 50% figure involving TMB tests is in her experience once luminol reveals possible blood, and then the investigators check it with another presumptive test, TMB, that will eliminate the possibility of it being blood roughly 50% of the time as it's more selective than luminol, which will give a false positive with about 250 household items.

As for Frank defending her, that might be because in the past she's cleared people with DNA tests, it looks to me he doesn't want her to take any blame as it was the police who took Amanda into that back room and started this. As you'll recall he was defending Mignini too under the same theory, that police had him fooled as well. Now under Mignini's orders Frank has had charges filed on him, his blog removed under court order, and I suspect he's not exactly advertising where he is right now if he wants to keep blogging from the Swedish server. I'd say he's in 'hiding' which might also be an apt description, but that sounds too much like a Seventies movie!

There was a package of mushrooms in Meredith's fridge and it was reported there were no mushrooms on the pizza. I guess she snacked on a mushroom when she got home, giving her at least some limited time in the cottage before the attack. After a full meal like she had it seems unlikely she got through the door and immediately felt like eating something. If Rudy were in the bathroom at this point he may have tried to wait it out hoping she would leave again. Perhaps she surprised him when going to check her laundry. Perhaps she noticed the cold draft coming from the broken window in Filomena's room and started turning on all lights to investigate. Perhaps we'll never know unless he confesses.

As I recall it was never proven it was a mushroom, that was just a 'possibility' and being as she ate ~6:15 with a little apple crumble an hour or two later, by 9:00 or so when she got home she might have wanted a mushroom as she started to call her sick mother, who knows? I don't see how it matters either way.

 

[LondonJohn]

Sarah Scazzi update: More Evidence?

The usual. More rope. More stains. More Luminol. And more denials from Sabrina and her mom, Cosima.
The good news. The florist who saw Sabrina and her mom throw Sarah into Cosima's car? Ummm, the florist now thinks maybe that was just a dream.

///

I wonder what kind of vivid dreams Quintavalle and Capezzali might have had. I suspect we might be soon to find out......

 

[katy_did]

Obviously if it turns out to be apple from the apple crumble, then (as Rolfe point out) it lends even more weight to a ToD close to 9pm. I would like to think, however, that Lalli could have differentiated between apple and mushroom - they have very different textures and cell structures.

The defence say that the fragment of food was never examined, just placed in a test tube and sealed, so it seems unlikely Lalli would have looked at it in any detail. They also claim there were similar food fragments in Meredith's stomach. If it was a mushroom, she must have eaten a handful of them!

 

[LondonJohn]

The defence say that the fragment of food was never examined, just placed in a test tube and sealed, so it seems unlikely Lalli would have looked at it in any detail. They also claim there were similar food fragments in Meredith's stomach. If it was a mushroom, she must have eaten a handful of them!

True, and I agree that it's crazy that further testing was not allowed. One thing that would be useful to know would be the state of digestion of this piece of food. After all, Meredith had eaten the apple crumble at least some 70-80 minutes before returning home - so even if the apple crumble had sat in the fundus of the stomach while the rest of the stomach was still processing the pizza, there would still have been exposure to stomach acids and enzymes. This would be reflected in the physical state of the piece of food: if it were relatively solid, with pronounced edges and a fairly uniform colour, then it had likely not been inside the stomach for long. If, however, it was softer, with feathered edges and mottled/mixed colour, it's likely that it would have sat in the stomach for some period of time.

 

[Dan O.]

Does anyone have a citation for there being a package of mushrooms in Meredith's fridge? I know this has been widely accepted but I haven't been able to verify it.

We know from the video that there was an open package of mushroom in Raffaele's fridge and this was covered by the early news reports.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

Please feel free to offer your opinion on Sgt. Pasquali if the spirit so moves you.

I don't have an opinion on Sgt. Pasquali. I have an opinion on the likelihood of someone having crawled through that window.