• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
I agree with HoverBoarder that my post is the best one on the thread.
 
Thunder said:
you're correct. Life for Palestinians in the WB is much worse than for blacks during Jim Crow.
Click to expand...

True.

Black women were never killed for being seen in public with a man after 8:00 pm under Jim Crow. Blacks were never killed for selling their property to the wrong race/ethnicity/creed under Jim Crow. Blacks were never killed for converting to the wrong religion under Jim Crow.
 
Sword_Of_Truth said:
True.

Black women were never killed for being seen in public with a man after 8:00 pm under Jim Crow. Blacks were never killed for selling their property to the wrong race/ethnicity/creed under Jim Crow. Blacks were never killed for converting to the wrong religion under Jim Crow.
Click to expand...

Zoom! Awesome use of his own argument against him.
 
Stout said:
Pity, I was looking forward to some serious MEMRI beatdown where we could hoist it's lifeless corpse on a pole and publicly burn it in effigy. Maybe next time.
Click to expand...

Exposure as an arm of the israeli government is sufficient.

It is like exposing the financing of the US communist party and German-American Bunds were. Exposure is sufficient. Americans do not like being deceived.

When the Jewish Telegraph Agency operations were exposed as an arm of the Israeli government in the 50s it went dormant until the last decade when Israel revived it. US law makes their US employees agents of a foreign government which is worth five years for failing to file the forms declaring that to be the case.
 
DC said:
the joke here is you. you couldn't bring up anything. strange. when talking about apartheid one can list countless rights they were lacking.
Click to expand...

What do you imagine black South Africans lacked? Or do you want pictures like this?


​
you were able to list one and even that one is not as you claim it to be.
Click to expand...

Why is it you have no problem with discrimination among citizens written into Israeli law?

What kind of "democracy" is it that does not have equal rights for all citizens?
 
Sword_Of_Truth said:
True.

Black women were never killed for being seen in public with a man after 8:00 pm under Jim Crow.
Click to expand...

That is Lebanon not Palestine.

Blacks were never killed for selling their property to the wrong race/ethnicity creed under Jim Crow.
Click to expand...

That is what happens to people who collaborate with the occupation. The French, Poles and Ukrainians did the same to those who collaborated with the Nazis. Do you have a problem with that? Jews even killed their own Kapos in the camps.

Blacks were never killed for converting to the wrong religion under Jim Crow.
Click to expand...

Nor were they killed for being in the wrong part of town any time day or night. Nor were they subject to road blocks and the humiliation appears similar.

Nor did they have foreign troops running loose and ordering them around and murdering them almost at whim.

Simply, Blacks did not live under a military dictatorship.
 
HoverBoarder said:
These are the two best posts on the thread, both are true in their own way.
Click to expand...
Parky's/Thuder's post was already responded to here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7233954&postcount=4052. It has yet to be responded to. These fictional and misrepresented claims by Parky have been addressed previously, but once you understand his motivations and tactics, you'll see that he simply ignores the responses and continues making these claims.

Whether you call Israel an Apartheid State or not, the fact is that the present system is not sustainable or beneficial to the security or moral structure of the State. If Israel wants stable long term security, they will need to establish a system that promotes the safety, security, and freedom of those who live in the region that are not Jewish. In addition, a long term stable Israeli State also will require a stable Palestinian State as its neighbor.
Click to expand...
What happened post-67 was never meant to be sustainable and the core issue here is that Israel did not solve most of the issues back then unilaterally hoping for a better environment to start negotiations for peace in the future.

The responsibility of those residing in PA controlled areas lie on the shoulders of the PA, not Israel. The WB is a disputed region.

There are two main issues that are preventing this:

1. The definition of the Israeli state and the precursor for peace negotiations cannot be to just demand that the Palestinians agree that it should be a "Jewish Only State." That definition does not support the protection of the Israeli people, and is phrased in a way to purposefully prevent peace negotiations from occurring.

This definition needs to include that the protection and support of the Jewish people will be central tenet of the Country, and that this protection and support is maintained by Israel's commitment to the rights and freedoms of other great people living in Israel. As well as the promotion of a peaceful and stable Palestinian neighbor State.
Click to expand...
Its 'Jewish and democratic state', not 'Jewish only state'. Basic laws protect every citizen of Israel regardless of religion or ethnicity (ie Right for Equality, Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Protest, etc.)

I think you have it backwards here. The PA/Hamas/PLO has been pushing for the same status quo that currently resides in Gaza, a 'Jew-free zone'.

The PA/Hamas refuse to recognize not simply the Jewish character of Israel, but its existence altogether.

What you fail to recognize is if the PLO/PA actually recognize Israel as a state at its basic level (minus the Jewish bit), this would somehow negate their claims of a 'right of return' of the millions of self-proclaimed refugees. The same concept applies to the Arabs reluctance to take Israeli citizenship in E. J'lem, choosing permanent residency instead.

2. The calls from Hamas and others to destroy Israel, and comments by Hamas officials that they would use a future Palestinian State to base attacks on Israel cannot be ignored. A Palestinian State should have the right to have as many Palestinians as they want to move there, but the borders will need to be monitored by the UN. There will also need to be agreements before any Palestinian State is formed on how attacks from any future Palestinian state on Israel would require military responses from Israel, and how a Palestinian task force that is internationally monitored would need to be set up in the new Palestinian State to prevent such attacks from occurring.
Click to expand...
This is the standard practice of the PA/PLO as well. Welcome to the concept of double-speak, brought to you by Arafat.

The core issue with the above, is assuming that the PA/PLO/Hamas want to actually solve the 'refugee' issue (which they don't). Apart from this, is the lack of movement in changing the PLO charter (ie calls for jihad, adherence to Oslo accords and previous peace agreements, etc.) This thread has covered it quite a bit, so read up on it.

The UN has failed utterly in monitoring any border/DMZ in the past, be it the Sinai or Lebanon. Their mandates, currently in Lebanon, don't cover, and have never covered, an active role against preventing further violence in the region. What makes you think they or UNIFIL will actually function properly here?
 
Hoverboarder: there are four wars going on. One by the Israelies for security, one by the Palestinians for a state, one by (some) Israelies for fulfilling a biblical prophecy, one by (some) Palestinians for eradicating Israel.

Wars #1 and #2 can end in some sort of compromise. Wars #3 and #4 cannot.

There isn't much support for a biblical greater Israel on the Israeli side: the one party that openly says that, "Haichud ha'leumi", has something like 5- seats out of 120 in the Israeli parliament, and even those who support it without saying so are no more, probably, than (say) 15 of the seats (I probably exagerrate here); and in any case it isn't government policy.

On the Arab side, however, both the "moderate" PLO and Hamas support Israel's eradication. The only difference in how to do it, whether all at once or according to the "staged plan" for Israel's destruction. A political party that openly called for peace ran in the last (2006) elections and got 1% of the vote.

This is not to say only 1% of the Palestinians want peace. Most people prefer peace and security to war, even successful war, most of the time. But there is no political equivalent, not only of (say) Israel's "peace now", but even of Likud's views.

The "moderate" Abbas declared only last week, for example, that a Palestinian state must be totally free of Jews -- which is, in reverse, the view of Israeli "Kach" movement, which demanded all Arabs be expelled from Israel. "Kach" once (1984) won a single seat in the Israeli parliament (e.g., winning about 1% of the total vote), and was banned from running to the Knesset as racist ever since.

As for Hamas, which believes and acts on the view that randomly shelling Israeli cities and civilians is appropriate, there had never been any Israeli political party, no matter how extreme, with similar views in reverse, except perhaps for some lone nuts.
 
bigjelmapro said:
Oh, the battle of the superlatives.

Issue here is, these moderates don't exist in the PA, PLO, PNC, Hamas, etc. They, to my knowledge, are a significantly small group that has been marginalized with little or no power/influence within Palestinian society.

Moral equivalence doesn't quite cut it.
Click to expand...


Based on your opinion, the issue is resolved.
 
Matt Giwer said:
What do you imagine black South Africans lacked? Or do you want pictures like this?


Why is it you have no problem with discrimination among citizens written into Israeli law?

What kind of "democracy" is it that does not have equal rights for all citizens?
Click to expand...

wow you are still not able to list more? oh dear, so being a non jewish Israeli is surely preferable compared to being a black person during apartheid in SA. you totaly failed to make your case.
 
​

Book Review
Israel's willing Executioners
by Matt Giwer, © 2002 [October]

This new book tells the story of the millions of ordinary Jews around the world who remain silent while jewish Israel expelled, dispossessed, murdered, tortured, raped and pillaged millions of innocent and helpless Palestinians from 1948 to the present. Deliberately titled in the past tense it accentuates today's silence.
In excruciating detail with meticulous documentation the author gives dozens of examples of silence in the face of atrocities unquestioned and even proudly announced by the government of Israel. Citations from major wire services and newspapers and magazines, TV networks and internet sources clearly demonstrate the silence cannot be attributed to lack of information.

Snipped for compliance with Rule 4. Do not copy and paste lengthy tracts of text available elsewhere. Instead, post a short quote and a link to the other source.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL
 
Last edited by a moderator:
DC said:
wow you are still not able to list more? oh dear, so being a non jewish Israeli is surely preferable compared to being a black person during apartheid in SA. you totaly failed to make your case.
Click to expand...

I can see your sensibilities are still mired in the 1950s and have not developed a modern concept of civil rights. We cannot communicate on this basis.

Let me try to put it in terms you can understand. Imagine Jews were forced to live under the same conditions in Iran. Can you not imagine the jewish outcry? The sound of garment rending would echo around the world.

Jews in neglected ghettos? No problem for you. People can vote on letting a Jew live in the neighborhood or even apartment bulding? No problem for you. Jews only admitted to college after all non-Jews admitted and if there is space available? No problem for you. A Jew marries a non-citizen and the spouse cannot live in the country? No problem for you. Government controls all housing development and no new housing is built for Jews but only for everyone else? No problem for you.

Jews get to live like Palestinians, reverse the roles in Israel. But you still cannot see a problem with laws discriminating against Jews.

You are far behind the times.
 
Matt Giwer said:
What do you imagine black South Africans lacked? Or do you want pictures like this?


Why is it you have no problem with discrimination among citizens written into Israeli law?

What kind of "democracy" is it that does not have equal rights for all citizens?
Click to expand...

are non jewish Israelis alowed to enter public parks?
have non jewish Israelis seperate sections in public transportation?
are non jewish Israelis allowed to vote?

have you forgotten what apartheid was like?
 
Matt Giwer said:
I can see your sensibilities are still mired in the 1950s and have not developed a modern concept of civil rights. We cannot communicate on this basis.

Let me try to put it in terms you can understand. Imagine Jews were forced to live under the same conditions in Iran. Can you not imagine the jewish outcry? The sound of garment rending would echo around the world.

Jews in neglected ghettos? No problem for you. People can vote on letting a Jew live in the neighborhood or even apartment bulding? No problem for you. Jews only admitted to college after all non-Jews admitted and if there is space available? No problem for you. A Jew marries a non-citizen and the spouse cannot live in the country? No problem for you. Government controls all housing development and no new housing is built for Jews but only for everyone else? No problem for you.

Jews get to live like Palestinians, reverse the roles in Israel. But you still cannot see a problem with laws discriminating against Jews.

You are far behind the times.
Click to expand...

can you link us to those alleged laws of apartheid then? no?

compared to SA apartheid live in Israel as a non jew must be like paradise.
 
DC said:
are non jewish Israelis alowed to enter public parks?
have non jewish Israelis seperate sections in public transportation?
are non jewish Israelis allowed to vote?

have you forgotten what apartheid was like?
Click to expand...

Non-Jews have been banned from public beaches if that is close enough to parks for you. I only know what I read is Israeli newspapers. It is clear you read none. Even Der Jerusalem Post reports this stuff.

Yes to separate parts of the bus, literally, at least in Jerusalem and the victim arrested and charged. And Jews have been permitted to enter the non-Jewish parts carrying rifles and two cases slaughtering the non-Jews.

As for voting, it is illegal in Israel for any political party to have a platform of equal rights for all Israelis so it is not clear just what value there is in voting. They cannot vote for equal rights and no party can campaign for equal rights. You certainly know this. Why are you pretending not to know it?

Why are you now again pretending not to know what Israel is like?
 
DC said:
can you link us to those alleged laws of apartheid then? no?

compared to SA apartheid live in Israel as a non jew must be like paradise.
Click to expand...

As soon as you link to the SA laws in Afrikaans I will consider linking to the apartheid laws in Israeli Hebrew.

For such an intelligent person I expected you to be much more clever than this.
 
Matt Giwer said:
Book Review
Israel's willing Executioners
by Matt Giwer, © 2002 [October]

This new book tells the story of the millions of ordinary Jews around the world who remain silent...
Click to expand...

Yeah, that whole jew thing is a global conspiracy, isn't it?

There aren't any of them who are innocent in your eyes, are there mister "All kikes are lampshades"?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom