Merged Cold Fusion Claims

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You may--after you or someone else answers this (knowing the answer would be speculative):

Is this most likely intentional fraud? Or is it possible that these guys really believe they're on to something, and just don't understand enough about the science?

I don't understand all the principles involved here, but folks can stubbornly hold on to irrational scienc-y stuff in biology and medicine, something I understand a bit better.

I tend to say intentional fraud. Why ? If that affair had been in a vaccuum, and there hasn't been the failed venture on heater, I might think otherwise. If there wasn't this insistance on secret catalyst and new physic, I would even give the benefit of doubt.

But all 3 together ? That make the needle of the fraud detector go away from the "crackpot" side of the quadrant toward the "fraud" side of the quadrant.

That said it is a feeling, not an evidence or anything.
 
To be honest, I don't know one way or the other.

However it takes spectacular incompetence to perform these demonstrations as badly as they have been. Also, there seems to have been no attempt to consult true experts in the field of calorimetry (Engineers, physical chemists, experimental physicists), any of whom could have quickly devised a true test of whether the effect is real. To my mind that screams fraud, but I'm ready to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that it's merely cargo cult science.
 
Is this most likely intentional fraud? Or is it possible that these guys really believe they're on to something, and just don't understand enough about the science.

Intentional fraud. It's an area rife with fraud and this is playing right out of that play book.
 
I'd say 75-80% likely to be fraud. There are cases of people who honestly believe they have something, but are just deluding themselves, but they tend to be the basement-and-garage type guys who aren't seeking, or finding, world-wide recognition of (and investments in) their "discoveries". This looks to me like someone who's noticed the ongoing returns from companies like Blacklight Power and Steorn, and decided to cash in on that revenue stream.
 
While I agree that one should have some idea of what they're talking about before judging, it's not necessarily required to spot a scam.
 
people who need to learn about nuclear fusion should not make statements of certainty about LERN being a scam or not.

Yes they should. Because the cretins who try to bilk people with disgusting scams like this deserve nothing but scorn and criticism, and those who are not able to comprehend the stupidity of the "LERN" idiots' version of "science" can rely on those of us who do and laugh right along. We have seen this exact script played out for about 100 years on various free energy scams - including supporters duped by the scams telling people they are being irresponsible for calling them what they are.
 
An example of such a scam from history;
http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/odcuri.Html

See the section on the Holman locomotives.

<SNIP>

One painful case that was pushed to my attention will illustrate the danger of taking stock in things recommended by friends. Mrs. Marion French had sufficient money in United States bonds to produce her an income of $570 a year. Some idiotic friend advised her to invest in the Holman Locomotive Company's Stock, assuring her that she would more than double her income without risk. Our washerwoman never loses a chance to ask me when the Holman Locomotive Company will begin paying dividends.

<SNIP>
 
Holman may have ended up as a scam but there were several other examples of similar designs being pushed around at the same time. I think it started off legit but quickly turned into a scam.

Rossi on the other hand is an established fraudster.
 
people who need to learn about nuclear fusion should not make statements of certainty about LERN being a scam or not.

Try telling that to the people who post their pro-LENR "research" (ETA: especially "theory") in Rossi's "journal".
 
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No doubt about it, it defies common sense. Seems way too good to be true. Rossi has a bit of a shady past. Nothing like this has ever existed before so
why now? Free energy claims in the past have never worked out. If we go with statistics, Not a chance in hell. Yet it seems so unusual. His partner is a legit physics professor with published work in lenr research. Rossi walked into the physics department of a major university to demonstrate. Levi,Kullander, Essén, Lewan and more from science community are convinced. Investor groups, now over $300 million worth, sent scientists to check it out and were convinced. Can't see how this can be considered run of the mill anything.

Hi unclep2k,

I have been following this thread and my thinking on the e-cat is similar to yours. Part of this is that thru my career most of the discoveries made by me and colleagues amounted to alchemy, with poor understanding of the effects we obtained.
I see you have mentioned that a lot of well heeled investor groups are now involved. I have tried to find this information but can't. Would you please be kind enough to tell us where you are getting this info on the investors, and if possible, who they are?
 
The "E" in JREF is for "Education."

People read these threads to learn.
Yes indeed, there are lots of us lurkers here for the education. If a newbie like Aam , for example, isn't aware of, say, ben m's credentials, he should be able to infer it from the last few posts, or failing that, just ask him.
 
While I agree that one should have some idea of what they're talking about before judging, it's not necessarily required to spot a scam.

I have noticed that people who are in the business of "deception", such as illusionists (ie, Our Own Beloved Founder, Mr. Randi :)) are in a far more advantageous frame-of-mind to spot fakery than Scientists and other "experts".

It seems to be that the way they look at the situation makes the possibilities for deception "jump out at them"

FWIW

Cheers,

Dave.
 
... Part of this is that thru my career most of the discoveries made by me and colleagues amounted to alchemy, with poor understanding of the effects we obtained.
...

Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot??

May I ask what general field inquiry you work in, and what "discoveries" and effects you have obtained?

No need to reveal proprietary info or trade secrets, just a general outline/framework so we can understand?

Thanks

Dave
 
Attaboy here are a couple links I had handy on the two investment groups. The Greek and the Us investors. I do have a link somewhere saying the US group has put together 280 mil in investment capital. I'll post it if I find it.

Thanks uncle
 
Attaboy here are a couple links I had handy on the two investment groups. The Greek and the Us investors. I do have a link somewhere saying the US group has put together 280 mil in investment capital. I'll post it if I find it.

Hi Uncle,

I've tried those links and they weren't able to bring up investment info.
 
Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot??

May I ask what general field inquiry you work in, and what "discoveries" and effects you have obtained?

No need to reveal proprietary info or trade secrets, just a general outline/framework so we can understand?

Thanks

Dave

I won't go into a lot of detail here but I'm now retired. I got into some of this in an earlier post. I have a PhD in chemistry from SUNYAB. Most of the R&D I did was not of the exotic type. It was mainly material formulating in industries where getting patents was usually not done. Put in simple terms, you test various combos of materials to find one that produces the desired effect. I was mainly in the areas of cleaning, corrosion prevention and lubrication. As often as not there was poor understanding of why a particular combination worked. And the company usually didn't really care as long as they could make money from it. For some of the more spectacular finds we had no clue as to why they were successful.
I will tell you this story. At one point I changed jobs and went with a company called Chem Trend in 1977. It was started in the 1960's by a chemist named Peer Lorentzen who had immigrated from Denmark. This company had grown very quickly and it was obvious that Lorentzen was a rich man by the time I came along. What wasn't so obvious at first, was how he got so rich. For the more I got to know about his technology, the more I realized how primitive it was. But then I realized he had a cunning knack for ruthlessness. He got people to buy mold release agents that were way over priced even though they were of simple composition. And I learned there had been a long line of people who had been hired and fired by Peer after he'd picked their brains. I was one of the fortunate ones who got out before I was fired, even though within a month I had developed a water based concrete mold release agent that Peer and his staff had been struggling to develop for years.
So here's Peer, a not so good practical chemist, and I come along with a large collection of materials and methods that have proven useful, spectacular in some cases, in improving formulated products. But as to the why of all this, I had little or no understanding in many cases. This infuriated Peer, for he had to have a complete understanding of why the materials/methods worked. For him, this had mostly been possible within the simple minded technology of the usual Chem Trend product.
I vividly recall a specific solvent butyl cellosolve (bc), a member of the large class of glycol ether type industrial solvents. Prior to Chem Trend it became very clear to me, and other chemists I'd worked with, that this was generally the most useful of the glycol ethers. This was mainly for its solubilizing and stabilizing effects in products, but for other reasons as well. We realized some basis for its effectiveness, but our understanding was very incomplete.
bc was in a product I had developed for Peer and had to discuss in a meeting. Peer rejected it out of hand because he couldn't understand why it worked - said it was not polar enough. Nor could I give him an explanation as to why it worked so well.
My point of all this is that here was a product I had developed, and where there was no question that it met all performance objectives, yet was rejected (by Peer) because he couldn't understand all the interworkings.
To me, E-cat, as it relates to many posters on this forum, is a little like what I experienced with Peer, and others for that matter. Please know that I'm not sold on E-cat. The jury is still out as far as I'm concerned. But to reject it out of hand because it can't be explained by the theories of modern physics is, I feel, a mistake.
 
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