babycondor
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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case
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Dan O.
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Good luck on that. I've spoken to one drive recovery expert that has been experimenting using lasers and mirrors to realign the platters once they've been removed from the drive. It seems that some drive manufacturers (Toshiba in particular) have been distributing the data across the platters to increase performance. If the data streams coming off the platters are not synchronized, they cannot be converted back into the original data stream. The encoding is also probably proprietary so it cannot be put back together offline except by the manufacturer.
I absolutely agree that you would need to be working with the manufacturer to do this. Unless you're the NSA perhaps.
Dan O.
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It could be. There might be a record of human activity on that computer on the night on the night of the murder but now we'll probably never know.
I wouldn't like to rule out the possibility that it's announced they had forgotten other stuff they were doing that could provide an alibi.It could be. There might be a record of human activity on that computer on the night on the night of the murder but now we'll probably never know.
JREF2010
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appreciated.
I'm having troubles understanding how this new information will play out or be implemented in the decision making.
(if the data shows, as some assume, the knife is not credible evidence per the new experts)
Will Judge Hellman strike this from the preceding documents? or will he inform the jurors to make their own decision still including mixed dna from the toilet, for example?
Will he turn to the prosecution for a new updated Amanda stabbing video, but using a different knife? (a bit of sarcasm) Will the prosecution be required to sell yet another theory at the closing, maybe with a George Lucas surround sound video player this time, showing Amanda cowering in the kitchen with her ears covered while Raffaele stabs and Rudy poops?
Is my understanding correct? The other evidence is going to stand as truthful and solid proof and uncontested. Will the mixed DNA, the interrogation confession, the luminol prints + bathmat be supported by Massei's court and fed, as truthful fact, to this jury.
If this is so, like many said, the sentence would be only reduced at this Appeal Trial, mainly by Hellman only reviewing some evidence, possibly allowing other shoddy evidence to remain.
Will these jurors have power to determine a new sentence, to lower the years, in laymens terms? Not using a full acquittal, but somehow reducing the years? What would qualify for reduction in sentence?
excuse me.. so many questions!
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RoseMontague
Published Author
Some of the evidence will stand as it is unless there is new evidence that is introduced and allowed to be explored by the judge. That does not mean the new court will reason on that evidence the same way. Quintavalle is a good example of this. There is plenty of evidence in the trial record that he is unreliable, as pointed out in the appeal documents, and the new court may find his testimony to be unreliable as well.
The court will rule on each of the requests made in the appeals including the prosecution's appeal. This includes things like the computers, the pillow stain, audiometric testing, mitigation, use of Amanda's statements, etc.
There is enough evidence and expert opinion for the court to rule on the Luminol prints, TOD, bathmat print, etc. This is a new trial but much of the evidence will remain as is and not be added on to. The court is free to find that the bathmat print could as likely be Guede's as much as Sollecito's for example. Again, the court does not have to follow the reasoning of Massei. I highly doubt they are going to go with the large bag, large knife reasoning that Massei employed as another example.
Then again, they may not even get that far if the DNA experts rule the knife an bra clasp evidence as unreliable. That and Curatolo's testimony are keys to placing them at the murder scene. My bet is that they go as far as new testing on the computers and pillow stain before making a decision.
RoseMontague
Published Author
I wonder what other evidence the police played with before the experts got a chance to
unfare
It seems to me that the police went out their way to destroy, these computers, this was to kill, Amanda and raffaele, only Alibi, that they was at Raffaeles, in the time slot. of the murder.
Has we both said before, this case should have not gone to court, one year being in jail.
And the police come back with a bra clip, and a knife, taken from Raffaele, flat, with just a tiny bit of DNA on both.
this case was closed when rudy was under arrest, and not before.
As the police was recording AK and RS phone calls, it they waited until the, lab has done its work, this mess would never had happen.
But it was the police who said, case closed after the arrest of AK and RS, and they said it to the world press.
Very bit of evidence that there was, to prove, AK and RS, innocent, has been destroy.
and the sadest thing about it, is Rudy done the crime, AK and RS is doing the time
It seems to me that the police went out their way to destroy, these computers, this was to kill, Amanda and raffaele, only Alibi, that they was at Raffaeles, in the time slot. of the murder.
Has we both said before, this case should have not gone to court, one year being in jail.
And the police come back with a bra clip, and a knife, taken from Raffaele, flat, with just a tiny bit of DNA on both.
this case was closed when rudy was under arrest, and not before.
As the police was recording AK and RS phone calls, it they waited until the, lab has done its work, this mess would never had happen.
But it was the police who said, case closed after the arrest of AK and RS, and they said it to the world press.
Very bit of evidence that there was, to prove, AK and RS, innocent, has been destroy.
and the sadest thing about it, is Rudy done the crime, AK and RS is doing the time
If I may quote another poster "Cool story"- but it has nothing to do with the case in the real world.
However it is interesting to see that after thousands of posts pushing the "Internalized False Confession'/ waterboarding" trope this has suddenly ditched in favour of the 'False Accusation / Trying to help the police' theory.
This is equally nonsensical but it is progress of a sort.
First the 'Lone Wolf' is dropped and now this
And despite a recent surge in popularity the 'Early and Precise ToD' seems to have been abandoned although one never can tell.
Strange days indeed, most peculiar !
And yet still no coherent scenario from the guilter side of the argument that fits.
Even mignini's know claims that Knox most likely never went into Meredith's room. Why would he do that? Didn't the prosecution claim one of the shoe prints was Knox's. Guess Mignini doesn't believe that anymore. How could Knox stab Meredith twice and cut her throat if she didn't enter the room. Guess that rules out the knife now. If knox didn't enter the room, how did she get blood on her feet? If she didn't get blood on her feet why would she clean up bloody bare female footprints. The mere fact that Mignini now suggests that Knox didn't enter the room blows huge holes in all the suspect evidence that was used against her.
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RoseMontague
Published Author
Good points. Perhaps Mignini sees the writing on the wall and is preparing a counter argument so he can still get something out of this. The CNN interview has been criticized for being one-sided. The primary reason it is one-sided is Mignini himself. I still think that is one of the worst interviews I have ever seen a prosecutor give, ranking right up there with Nifong's classic choke hold. Just Bizarre.
Maybe they are going to go back to the statement where Knox huddled with her hands over her ears while Patrick killed Meredith. That way they can claim she never entered the room and Guede was the killer, letting Sollecito go and pinning it on Knox and Guede. I mean they have to change theories since all the ones before it have fallen apart. Though you would think that after 3 years even the prosecutor/courts would come up with a believable scenario. Yet everyone is still waiting. 3 years to fit the evidence together and they can't even come close to a scenario that fits the evidence, which would involve Knox/Sollecito/Guede. Yet there has been atleast a half dozen scenarios that would fit Guede as a lone wolf killer. Yet when someone changes or puts forth a new scenario of how Guede was the killer, guilters are quick to point out how someone on the innocence side has changed. Yet the guilter side still hasn't offered up a scenario that won't be laughed off this forum as to how all 3 of them committed the rape/sexual assault together.
Chris_Halkides
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peak thresholds
JREF2010,
Thanks for bringing this point and this article up. The authors wrote, “The criminal justice system presently does a poor job of distinguishing unassailably powerful DNA evidence from weak, misleading DNA evidence… Many defense lawyers simply accept lab reports at face value without looking behind them to see whether the actual test results fully support the laboratory's conclusions. This can be a serious mistake.”
With respect to peak height, the authors wrote, “There are no generally accepted thresholds for how high peaks must be to qualify as a "true allele." Applied Biosystems, Inc., which sells the most widely used system for STR typing (the ABI Prism 310 Genetic Analyzer™ with the ProfilerPlus™ system) recommends a peak-height threshold of 150 RFU, saying that peaks below this level must be interpreted with caution. However, many crime laboratories that use the ABI system have set lower thresholds (down to 40 RFU in some instances). And crime laboratories sometimes apply their standards in an inconsistent manner from case to case or even within a single case. Hence, a defendant may be convicted in one case based on "peaks" that would not be counted in another case, or by another lab. And in some cases there may be unreported peaks, just below the threshold, that would change the interpretation of the case if considered.”
In the case of the knife electropherogram, 16 of 29 peaks attributed to Meredith are below even 40 RFU. Moreover, I have observed peaks in other electropherograms from this case in which peaks that seemed to be in this height range were not labeled. Were the unlabed peaks ignored? Did the laboratory use one peak threshold for the knife and another for the bra clasp? My tentative answer is yes to both questions, and I hope that Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti are able to get to the bottom of this issue.
JREF2010,
Thanks for bringing this point and this article up. The authors wrote, “The criminal justice system presently does a poor job of distinguishing unassailably powerful DNA evidence from weak, misleading DNA evidence… Many defense lawyers simply accept lab reports at face value without looking behind them to see whether the actual test results fully support the laboratory's conclusions. This can be a serious mistake.”
With respect to peak height, the authors wrote, “There are no generally accepted thresholds for how high peaks must be to qualify as a "true allele." Applied Biosystems, Inc., which sells the most widely used system for STR typing (the ABI Prism 310 Genetic Analyzer™ with the ProfilerPlus™ system) recommends a peak-height threshold of 150 RFU, saying that peaks below this level must be interpreted with caution. However, many crime laboratories that use the ABI system have set lower thresholds (down to 40 RFU in some instances). And crime laboratories sometimes apply their standards in an inconsistent manner from case to case or even within a single case. Hence, a defendant may be convicted in one case based on "peaks" that would not be counted in another case, or by another lab. And in some cases there may be unreported peaks, just below the threshold, that would change the interpretation of the case if considered.”
In the case of the knife electropherogram, 16 of 29 peaks attributed to Meredith are below even 40 RFU. Moreover, I have observed peaks in other electropherograms from this case in which peaks that seemed to be in this height range were not labeled. Were the unlabed peaks ignored? Did the laboratory use one peak threshold for the knife and another for the bra clasp? My tentative answer is yes to both questions, and I hope that Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti are able to get to the bottom of this issue.
I think it was in one of the British tabloids if not CNN over the past two weeks, he said the reason her DNA was not in the room is because she stood at the threshold and "orchestrated" the rape and murder. Sort of like a cheerleader I guess. So he no longer has her administrating the fatal blow.
Antony
Graduate Poster
A bit of a silly example, but Shipman went from one slap on the wrist for self prescribing to 200+ murders without much in between, didn't he?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Shipman
Judging by Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_and_Clyde#Bonnie_Parker
I don't think these cases are any parallel with Amanda and Raff's alleged involvement in Meredith's murder.
PS. Even so, I appreciate your offering an answer to my question, which was directed to Alt+F4. Maybe it was too much to expect her to substantiate her claim that we could find "dozens" of cases with 5-10 minutes research.
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JREF2010
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in laymens terms, if you can , do you have a thought of what exactly the raw data is going to add that this trial, that the already presented data doesnt capture?
There isn't really any evidence placing Amanda in the cottage at the time of the murder. Can we look forward to Mignini claiming that Amanda orchestrated the murder using remote psychic control from Raffaele's place?
pilot padron
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Because few are left willing to endure the 'laughing'
Of course one might opine that your statement says a lot more about the decorum, openness, balance, and civility of the Thread than it does about the capabilities of any skeptical opposition contributors.
Judge Massei spent a year examining *all* evidence as well as listening to the best lawyers in Italy arguing your points and presenting 'scenarios'.
He labored another 3 months detailing in addition to his scenario, his 470 page reasons why *all* the jurors were convinced of a 'scenario' of guilt.
The 'laughers' here, few of which if any hold an iota of Massei's credentials, pile only rude, disrespectful (laughing) ridicule on his efforts.
The Highest Court in Italy was convinced of a 'scenario' that involved others besides Guede..
(save us the tired whines about admissibility....that is not the point)
And you now ask why guilters here voted with their feet rather than argue 'scenarios' for you to laugh at rather than debate ??
I mean if Judge Massei, and the Highest Judges in the country are all that the rude and unqualified (laughing) detractors here say about them....who am I to bother?
Of course one might opine that your statement says a lot more about the decorum, openness, balance, and civility of the Thread than it does about the capabilities of any skeptical opposition contributors.
Judge Massei spent a year examining *all* evidence as well as listening to the best lawyers in Italy arguing your points and presenting 'scenarios'.
He labored another 3 months detailing in addition to his scenario, his 470 page reasons why *all* the jurors were convinced of a 'scenario' of guilt.
The 'laughers' here, few of which if any hold an iota of Massei's credentials, pile only rude, disrespectful (laughing) ridicule on his efforts.
The Highest Court in Italy was convinced of a 'scenario' that involved others besides Guede..
(save us the tired whines about admissibility....that is not the point)
And you now ask why guilters here voted with their feet rather than argue 'scenarios' for you to laugh at rather than debate ??
I mean if Judge Massei, and the Highest Judges in the country are all that the rude and unqualified (laughing) detractors here say about them....who am I to bother?
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Chris_Halkides
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raw data
That is a very difficult question. It might shed some light on the point we have been discussing, namely what were the peak thresholds used for all of the runs. It will probably determine whether or not Dr. Stefanoni's team ran negative controls and what the results of those controls were.
Perhaps the most interesting thing that may happen is that we may get a better sense of how many people contributed DNA to the bra clasp. The analysis of mixtures contains an element of subjectivity, however, and there might not be a definitive answer to this question. One of the mixed DNA samples may also have a third contributor, and this mixture would present some of the same challenges as the bra clasp.
JREF2010,
That is a very difficult question. It might shed some light on the point we have been discussing, namely what were the peak thresholds used for all of the runs. It will probably determine whether or not Dr. Stefanoni's team ran negative controls and what the results of those controls were.
Perhaps the most interesting thing that may happen is that we may get a better sense of how many people contributed DNA to the bra clasp. The analysis of mixtures contains an element of subjectivity, however, and there might not be a definitive answer to this question. One of the mixed DNA samples may also have a third contributor, and this mixture would present some of the same challenges as the bra clasp.
As I said, they were just the first ones to come to mind. I don't know that many murderers and the famous ones tend to be the nuttiest. Bonnie is undermined as an example by not having killed anyone. If one wanted, you could claim she was a nice girl before meeting Clyde. She wrote bad poetry and everything. I did get 17,400 hits for 'killer AND "no previous history of violence""' though. I haven't searched through it very hard, but there's this quote:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/the-towel-that-trapped-a-killer-14097629.html?service=Print
I haven't done very much reading on this case, I think there is a quote of somebody saying they thought he was a bit odd. Anyway, there's 17,000 and some urls to go through if it's a serious question.
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