Banning Incandescent Light Bulbs?

[The Fallen Serpent]

What are you thinking of, in terms of buildings? Strip malls and office buildings? Those typically have a rather high line voltage compared to your home. And the lighting quality is rather poor. AND you can't just put a CFL in place of a fluorescent tube fixture.

I'm getting the idea that you're not real familiar with lighting.

I am under the impression that tube fluorescents are more effecient than CFLs and fall well within the mandated limits. From what I understand it is largely non-specialty incandescent lights that are going to be affected, and even then not all of them. I think the best arguement that MHaze has made is that he is already specialized for incandescents in some set ups.

 

[lionking]

Well the fabric of society still appears intact in Australia even though people no longer have the god-given right to purchase wasteful old technology.

 

[Minadin]

This stuff is really, ultra, uber cool. Yet to be discovered by most people.

Maybe it'll be the sort of thing where the old people stick with their CFLs, and all the kids go with LED.

That'd be hilarious.

LED's are awesome, but maybe in 30 years they'll be talking about them like Geni is talking about incandescents. Who can say? That's the marvel of innovation.

I just think that all options need to be given a fair shot. Diversity of choice. Let us sort out the winners over time.

I'm all about energy efficiency, and so are my clients, nowadays, because it saves them money. But, that's not the ONLY factor to consider.

If a fixture saves you in electric, but costs you sales, because your product looks less appealing (for instance: produce, eyeglasses, jewelry) did you come out ahead?

 

[Ziggurat]

This stuff is really, ultra, uber cool. Yet to be discovered by most people.

I recently bought a few LED bulbs. I like them, but they're still really expensive, and they aren't the same. For example, you can't yet buy any 100 watt equivalents yet, let alone 150 watt equivalents. Most are 60 watt equivalent at best. The color isn't the same, and most of the 40-60 watt equivalents throw light primarily in 1 hemisphere. In many applications, that's a serious shortcoming. The only 60 watt equivalents I've seen which had a close to spherical spread were $30+. That's still just way too expensive. I expect it will come down in price, but still.

Maybe it'll be the sort of thing where the old people stick with their CFLs, and all the kids go with LED.

That'd be hilarious.

I suspect that's not what's going to happen. Older people will go to LED's first, because they have the spare capital. Given the price disparity, that's probably a much stronger driver than hipness.

 

[Minadin]

Well the fabric of society still appears intact in Australia even though people no longer have the god-given right to purchase wasteful old technology.

What did you guys do with your dimmer switches?

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

Personally I wanted to point out I think the "ban" is unnessecary. I think a focus on requiring lumens and efficiency ratings be more prominent than wattage on packaging would work better and still allow for uses where incandescents win. Informing over mandating in this case. I need about 5-7 incandescents to last as long as a single CFL, and the price is cheaper for a CFL in that comparison. In all honesty I used CFLs before I knew about the energy efficiency because I find incandescents "harsh." I am rather nocturnal, so I am not the best metric for such judgements. In the end the issue is pretty minor to me and I would not fight over the ban either. I am rather ambivalent towards it either way.

 

[Minadin]

Personally I wanted to point out I think the "ban" is unnessecary. I think a focus on requiring lumens and efficiency ratings be more prominent than wattage on packaging would work better and still allow for uses where incandescents win. Informing over mandating in this case. I need about 5-7 incandescents to last as long as a single CFL, and the price is cheaper for a CFL in that comparison. In all honesty I used CFLs before I knew about the energy efficiency because I find incandescents "harsh." I am rather nocturnal, so I am not the best metric for such judgements. In the end the issue is pretty minor to me and I would not fight over the ban either. I am rather ambivalent towards it either way.

I absolutely agree with informing over mandating.

I do use CFL's in my house in some cases, and in others, I have incandescent or Low-voltage lighting. I also use LED's. It depends on the situation. That's why I am against a ban. I like the diversity of options. Energy efficiency should be a factor - and it is, usually, but it shouldn't be mandated as the only one.

 

[The Don]

We've made the switch here in the UK and the world has not come to and end.

In almost all installations, the energy saving bulbs are perfectly satisfactory. The one exception I have found is the lighting of our communal stairway and walkway. Because energy saving bulbs take a while to reach maximum brightness, often I'm climbing poorly lit stairs.

 

[Fishstick]

We've made the switch here in the UK and the world has not come to and end.

In almost all installations, the energy saving bulbs are perfectly satisfactory. The one exception I have found is the lighting of our communal stairway and walkway. Because energy saving bulbs take a while to reach maximum brightness, often I'm climbing poorly lit stairs.

For locations like that (ie hallways, toilets, closets) we switched to LED lights. Same (or more) low power, but instant-light.

 

[mhaze]

We've made the switch here in the UK and the world has not come to and end.

In almost all installations, the energy saving bulbs are perfectly satisfactory. The one exception I have found is the lighting of our communal stairway and walkway. Because energy saving bulbs take a while to reach maximum brightness, often I'm climbing poorly lit stairs.

No kidding? And they also have a lumen curve that decreases pretty much linearly with time, so in the 4th year, your stairs is even worse. And that lumen curve decreases with lower temperature so in the night, when it is coldest, you get the least light.

So the CFL is simply the absolute worst bulb for that stairway, and in that application, increases the dangers of say, an elderly person slipping and falling, etc.

Which gets back to the original reason for the bulb in the stairway - to make using it SAFER.

But they told you to use them.

Because they know better than you and I.

 

[mhaze]

I recently bought a few LED bulbs. I like them, but they're still really expensive, and they aren't the same. For example, you can't yet buy any 100 watt equivalents yet, let alone 150 watt equivalents. Most are 60 watt equivalent at best. The color isn't the same, and most of the 40-60 watt equivalents throw light primarily in 1 hemisphere. In many applications, that's a serious shortcoming. The only 60 watt equivalents I've seen which had a close to spherical spreaad were $30+. That's still just way too expensive....

I'm recommending them today, at today's prices, for applications where more than a three step stepladder is required to replace; for outside applications inside housings that must be taken apart; for high vibration environments, such as a hall light where the AC is closeby, for landscape lighting, and other situations, where it's not 30 seconds or 2 minutes to change the bulb, but 10 or 20 minutes total.

The hallway example mentioned earlier is an excellent situation where an LED bulb is pretty much perfect. Cost is not so much of an issue there, plus you put it in once, and forget about it.

 

[mhaze]

.....that's not the ONLY factor to consider.

If a fixture saves you in electric, but costs you sales, because your product looks less appealing (for instance: produce, eyeglasses, jewelry) did you come out ahead?

I guess it's fine with me if people in Australia think they are buying or selecting something brown to wear, and actually it's green (believing what they see under those CFLs).

Their world didn't come to an end.

But there is this little voice that's telling me that their socialist overlords are selecting their clothes under incadescent light, so that they won't be a mistake as to the color.

You know, those CFLs they are for the little....people...

 

[psionl0]

Banning incandescents is a clear example of being "seen" to be doing something about energy conservation without actually doing anything.

The correct time to phase out incandescents would be when the bright LED technology produces light globes as practical as the incandescent ones are. CFL's may be useful in rooms where the light is to be switched on for long periods of time but otherwise they are a terrible replacement for incandescents.

• They can not be used with conventional dimming circuits.
• They take about 3 minutes to achieve maximum brightness (so they are unsuitable in bathrooms/toilets etc).
• They contain mercury and phosphorous which means that large scale disposal of old globes will be an environmental problem in the future.
• If a CFC globe is broken then the room needs to be evacuated and aired out (ie they are dangerous).

Fortunately for Australia, halogen globes are also being introduced as a replacement for incandescents.

It is not the end of the world - just a minor inconvenience for householders. Sooner or later the bright LED technology will take over from other forms of lighting - just as it would have anyway. In the mean time, expect to see a lot of mutual back-slapping by politicians.

 

[MRC_Hans]

People still want to get their light from heated tungsten strips? Why?

Because they still give the best light spectrum of all known light sources. And the difference is far from trivial.

Do they also use knives made from flint?

Serious answer: No, because there exists a much better alternative.

Not so serious: Yes, they are in fact coming back in use. The modern ceramic knives are made from SiO₂, which is essentially the same substance as flint.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Banning incandescents is a clear example of being "seen" to be doing something about energy conservation without actually doing anything.


The correct time to phase out incandescents would be when the bright LED technology produces light globes as practical as the incandescent ones are.

The problem is that the development of alternative light sources would probably not move at all without the ban. There is little motivation for anybody to spend money on R&D when you have to compete with a much simpler and cheaper product. Unfortunatly, consumers are not much enthusiastic about a poorer, more expensive product, just because it is claimed to be environmentally friendly.

If a CFC globe is broken then the room needs to be evacuated and aired out (ie they are dangerous).

Ahh, not as dangerous as all that.

Sooner or later the bright LED technology will take over from other forms of lighting - just as it would have anyway.

So, how many LED lamps were on the market before this ban was introduced?

- I'm afraid that you are most likely wrong. Bright white LEDs had a niche in battery driven devices, but such applications don't need a very good spectrum, nor do they need to go into high power.

As long as we use an evolutionary (market driven) system, it is sometimes necessary to apply some selective pressure.

Hans

 

[Mojo]

CFL's have their problems...

Eyelids on snakes, drumsticks, and sky marshals, to name but a few.

 

[DC]

Have we really lost all logic and reason?

http://www.snopes.com/medical/toxins/cfl.asp



And get this



I've heard that's what they want to do here in the US. Are they nuts? Making it a crime to produce incandescent light bulbs while forcibly ?

http://deq.mt.gov/Recycle/Real_Question.mcpx


Ok we get it the bulbs are super earth friendly but don't make it a crime to produce.

when you run your incandescent light bulbs with cole power, more mercury will go into nature from burning cole, compared to a "mercury filled" light bulb.
and meanwhile there are alternatives to your mercury filled bulbs, i changed resently to LED bulbs.

 

[DC]

Banning incandescents is a clear example of being "seen" to be doing something about energy conservation without actually doing anything.

The correct time to phase out incandescents would be when the bright LED technology produces light globes as practical as the incandescent ones are. CFL's may be useful in rooms where the light is to be switched on for long periods of time but otherwise they are a terrible replacement for incandescents.

• They can not be used with conventional dimming circuits.
• They take about 3 minutes to achieve maximum brightness (so they are unsuitable in bathrooms/toilets etc).
• They contain mercury and phosphorous which means that large scale disposal of old globes will be an environmental problem in the future.
• If a CFC globe is broken then the room needs to be evacuated and aired out (ie they are dangerous).

Fortunately for Australia, halogen globes are also being introduced as a replacement for incandescents.

It is not the end of the world - just a minor inconvenience for householders. Sooner or later the bright LED technology will take over from other forms of lighting - just as it would have anyway. In the mean time, expect to see a lot of mutual back-slapping by politicians.

disposal? they get recycled......

 

[psionl0]

disposal? they get recycled......

I can just see all of these householders trekking to the recycling centre with burned out CFCs in hand and resisting the temptation to just drop it in the rubbish bin.

 

[MRC_Hans]

I can just see all of these householders trekking to the recycling centre with burned out CFCs in hand and resisting the temptation to just drop it in the rubbish bin.

Yea, that's a problem that needs to be resolved. However, it is possible to build a recycle culture. In my neck of the woods we get fairly good recycle rates on most things. There is also some synergy: Once you collect newpapers, bottles, and batteries, and take those to the recycle centre regularly, it's no big deal to also bring the dead bulbs.

And, since they have a long service life, it's not that many; I have a dozen CFCs of various types in use in my house, and I get one or two burning out, per year.

Hans