Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris_Halkides]

the interrogations should not have even happened

Its like an extension of the Darwin awards. If someone is stupid enough during a murder investigation to do that they almost deserve to be in prison. Same with raph and the speed of his capitulation & excuses when told about dna on the knife. If they are innocent they're 2 of the most stupid people on earth. Will we really miss them?

I don't believe that those two interrogations should ever have taken place. Giobbi's reasons for suspecting Amanda never made a lick of sense. And Guede should have already been in jail, according to Ron Hendry.

 

[yeti101]

And you explanation for the Norfolk Four is what? Your explanation for Karl Fontenot is what?

yes this is a good point we have other stupid people confessing to crimes they didn't commit. A lot of the time there's mental illness involved for those that don't i have about as much sympathy as I do for AK & RS if they're innocent.

 

[LondonJohn]

i believe when your innocent its easy to give an account & stick to because its the truth. Lamumba didn't have any problems- no false memories or "visions" I imagine the pressure he was under was far greater.

"It's easy". Hahahaha

I think you haven't really thought this through properly. It's "easy" to see that playing the national (or state) lottery is a waste of money, and that it's actually a voluntary additional tax. Yet millions and millions of people still play it because they cannot understand statistics and expected outcomes. It's "easy" to pay your credit/store card debts off every month, yet millions of people choose to keep debts on these cards at high interest rates rather than pay them off - whether they can do so from available funds or whether they need to take out lower-interest bank loans to do so.

And it's "easy" to sit in a comfortable armchair, with a nice clear mind, with the benefit of hindsight, and state that only an idiot would ever confess to something that they hadn't done. I'm here to tell you that you're wrong.

PS: Lumumba was fortunate enough to have a cast-iron alibi for the whole period of the murder, and he knew that he had a cast-iron alibi. He was also - I would suspect - entirely sober on the night of the murder, since he owned and ran his bar. He therefore would have been sure of his ground from the very start, and hopeful that his unimpeachable alibi witness (a Swiss university professor named Roman Mero, who had been talking with Lumumba in his bar that evening) would come forward. Mero did come forward (of his own volition, it should be added), and Lumumba was totally in the clear.

 

[babycondor]

"visions" i thought it was implanted memories or something? this is the problem not being able to give a clear & coherent account puts you in trouble.

Its like an extension of the Darwin awards. If someone is stupid enough during a murder investigation to do that they almost deserve to be in prison. Same with raph and the speed of his capitulation & excuses when told about dna on the knife. If they are innocent they're 2 of the most stupid people on earth. Will we really miss them?

Your sense of fairness and compassion is noted.

 

[yeti101]

"It's easy". Hahahaha

I think you haven't really thought this through properly. It's "easy" to see that playing the national (or state) lottery is a waste of money, and that it's actually a voluntary additional tax. Yet millions and millions of people still play it because they cannot understand statistics and expected outcomes. It's "easy" to pay your credit/store card debts off every month, yet millions of people choose to keep debts on these cards at high interest rates rather than pay them off - whether they can do so from available funds or whether they need to take out lower-interest bank loans to do so.

And it's "easy" to sit in a comfortable armchair, with a nice clear mind, with the benefit of hindsight, and state that only an idiot would ever confess to something that they hadn't done. I'm here to tell you that you're wrong.

well I speak from personal experience because the Police have done it to me. I was told several things such as i matched the description "precisely", was seen by a police officer leaving the scene who recognized the cap I was wearing, my friend already admitted it so I might as well "tell the truth." Wasn't difficult for me I never experienced any false memories or visions maybe i'm special?

 

[LondonJohn]

Your sense of fairness and compassion is noted.

The post you're referring to is a good piece of evidence in favour of the argument that juries should only contain people with a full secondary education or higher.

 

[Kaosium]

Although again, since you are on the 'Home Team', there is the notable absence of the usual knee jerk deafening crescendo of catcalls for documentation and/or unsolicited grammar epistles that usually results when the other team says anything in any way controversial like: "The sun is shining somewhere"

Free copy-editing is always cool. They're working for you and not getting paid!

So with that obviously biased based deficiency understood, would you mind either:

a) documenting your 'statement' that: "a dirty look, noise ticket, and pot charge were the reason that the Prosecution appealed Amanda and Raffie's sentences"
2) or correcting

I'm not sure where to look it up to be honest. I'll withdraw it pending confirmation or correction, but we know the sentence was appealed for some reason, another I recall was lack of remorse shown, which of course figures being as they're innocent. Kind of a rigged game they have set up there, isn't it?

3) or making your intended and suspected sarcasm a bit clearer for 'men of the earth' unaccustomed to discussion techniques to include incredibly unbelievable superhuman mind reading skills self claimed by others who prolifically argue here

Have people been reading your mind, Pilot? Did they find any dirty parts?

BTW
If I had even hinted at 'pot charge' ,can you imagine the immediate melee of moaning and groaning that would ensue here?
For general interest of the other team, however, please do document the origins of that one. It may come in handy when rebutting 'meant to say' based arguments.

As I recall Raffaele had something like a pot possession charge which isn't that big a deal in Italy, but was used as a reason for appealing the mitigation that they had 'clean records' which is how Amanda's noise ticket figured in.

Isn't it interesting that everyone knows about Amanda's noise ticket, but you've never even heard of this charge of Raffaele's?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

It doesn't have to be that way

yes this is a good point we have other stupid people confessing to crimes they didn't commit. A lot of the time there's mental illness involved for those that don't i have about as much sympathy as I do for AK & RS if they're innocent.

As has been discussed before, Derek Tice has an IQ of 148+. Yes, Amanda and Raffaele were naive. However, the police have a responsibility to carry out an interview that does not elicit false statements. Now if we just look at the tapes of the interrogations, we will see....

 

[lane99]

...maybe i'm special?

Yes. I believe that is the politically correct term to use.

 

[lane99]

...Now if we just look at the tapes of the interrogations, we will see....

It seems the recent interview with the Migweenie brought new information to this question?

So, are the tapes, or not? I've never seen a definitive answer.

If there ARE tapes, they will essentially confirm Knox's account, and put the lie to the police's, I'd be willing to bet.

 

[Kaosium]

yes this is a good point we have other stupid people confessing to crimes they didn't commit. A lot of the time there's mental illness involved for those that don't i have about as much sympathy as I do for AK & RS if they're innocent.

I sure as hell do. They took a girl whose only real friend in a foreign country had been raped and murdered yards away from where she slept and kept her with them for about 52 out of the 90 hours between the discovery of the murder and her arrest. It ended with a overnight session where the told her they had 'hard evidence' of her at the scene, that Raffaele had 'dropped' her alibi, and they wouldn't let her eat or drink or even go to the bathroom for about seven hours until they got what they wanted, which they weren't going to give up on. Oh, and there was yelling and screaming and threatening and this wasn't done in accordance with Italian law.

If your experience was different it was probably because the cops that interviewed you didn't blow it as badly as they did with Amanda. They abused her, not meaning the whups upside the back of her head, but mentally. They should have let up long before they freaked her out, but they couldn't, probably because they were 'sure' she was complicit with Patrick in the murder.

 

[pilot padron]

Good explanation and wondering

As I recall Raffaele had something like a pot possession charge which isn't that big a deal in Italy, but was used as a reason for appealing the mitigation that they had 'clean records' which is how Amanda's noise ticket figured in.

Isn't it interesting that everyone knows about Amanda's noise ticket, but you've never even heard of this charge of Raffaele's?

Thanks, Kaosium, that explanation makes a lot of sense. (and did not even require the additional benefit of a mind reader or communications checker's inputs)

Agree about the relative disinterest in Raffie's pot charge, but as you say, mitigation must consider it.

Since we are speaking of disinterest, drug use, and the Defense team apparently now desperately seeing 'virtue among prostitutes' in that they feel value to be gained from believing even a fully convicted murderer who beat a child to death with a shovel, might I be excused for wondering.......

Why those here have shown so little interest in another fully convicted murderer who it was reported stated that Meredith told him that in direct contrast to the PR/Edda 'good friend talking point' ..... "Amanda Knox was a drugged up tart"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3047497.ece

 

[Alt+F4]

Why those here have shown so little interest in another fully convicted murderer who stated that Meredith told him that in direct contrast to the PR/Edda 'good friend talking point' ..... "Amanda Knox was a drugged up tart"

Indeed. So when RG said MK called AK a "drugged up tart" we're supposed to believe he's lying, but if he says that AK and RS were not involved with the murder, we're supposed to believe he's telling the truth.

 

[Onofarar]

Hi shuttlt. Yes, I remember you from the "old days" (I was just watching back then).

I agree. In fact, I'll go further than you and publicly ask "Charlie Wilkes" to release into the public domain all the pictures he has of the ground and wall underneath Filomena's window. Unless the Knox family didn't provide these photos to him, which of course only suggests other possible inquiries, such as: "Why not?""

FYI - Charlie Wilkes chose not to return after the "Groundhog Day Massacre" where he and several others (including yours truly) were suspended for various periods and two posters were permanently banned. Charlie does post in the Public Discussion Forum at IIP. You might seek him out there and return with what you learn.

 

[pilot padron]

Indeed. So when RG said MK called AK a "drugged up tart" we're supposed to believe he's lying, but if he says that AK and RS were not involved with the murder, we're supposed to believe he's telling the truth.

Yes, I have to also wonder if the desperate Defense Team used the old fishing techniques to obtain jailbirds willing to say nice things about Amanda and bad things about Rudy in Court.

Toss a sign down murders row aisle stating the below, and slowly 'reel it in':

Anyone wanting
1) a free day out of here
2) a new suit for a day
3) fresh haircut, shave, and grooming by experts
4) lots of media fawning
5) willing and able to say/remember to say what we say to say, good about Amanda and bad about Rudy

Just raise your hand (between bars of course)

 

[Kaosium]

Thanks, Kaosium, that explanation makes a lot of sense. (and did not even require the additional benefit of a mind reader or communications checker's inputs)

I think I'm missing something here, I was kinda busy this weekend, my brother had his anniversary and I let him celebrate it by taking his brood off his hands for a while, thus I kinda didn't have a chance to keep up as good as I should have. 'Communications checker' I got alright, but whose been 'reading' your mind? Did it have to do with the fact you were speaking in third person? I caught that.

Agree about the relative disinterest in Raffie's pot charge, but as you say, mitigation must consider it.

Since we are speaking of disinterest, drug use, and the Defense team apparently now desperately seeing 'virtue among prostitutes' in that they feel value to be gained from believing even a fully convicted murderer who beat a child to death with a shovel, might I be excused for wondering.......

Why those here have shown so little interest in another fully convicted murderer who stated that Meredith told him that in direct contrast to the PR/Edda 'good friend talking point' ..... "Amanda Knox was a drugged up tart"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3047497.ece

Thank you Pilot! You should be working for the 'home team!' You just helped us 'prove' animus on the part of Rudy! He didn't know either Amanda nor Meredith, so how could he 'know' that? It didn't come out during the catty girl-talk the British girls reported, they only heard the same-old complaints most have about roommates or you could even hear from married couples. Why would she tell Rudy something like that and not her friends? I'm suspicious! I think he's lying! I think he's guilty!

Or he could have just been following the news and knew including that in his story would ingratiate him to the prosecution, and considering the evidence he left all over the scene he sure needed some brownie points. For example, were you to start playing for the 'home team' I'm sure you'd know enough to start calling Mignini a kook, Giobbi a clown, and Stefanoni incompetent. You might even be able to think up better words!

 

[Kaosium]

It seems the recent interview with the Migweenie brought new information to this question?

So, are the tapes, or not? I've never seen a definitive answer.

If there ARE tapes, they will essentially confirm Knox's account, and put the lie to the police's, I'd be willing to bet.

I'm pretty sure Mignini just misspoke, there's no way he'd admit there were actually tapes of the November 5th/6th interrogation.

It would sure be nice if he got badgered about by the press though. Or, better yet a ferret in his trousers! A rabid one with sharp teeth!

 

[Onofarar]

Exactly. Mixed DNA is not that uncommon, even when there is no reason to question the collection technique. The way some of the samples were collected, it is almost as if they were trying to get mixed samples. Charlie Wilkes also pointed out that Dr. Stefanoni swabbing technique could have pulled material from her gloves. And Dr. Stefanoni's views on how often gloves should be changed are not shared by the writers of forensic guidelines and textbooks, as has been documented on this thread several times.

One thing I am concerned about is the reliability and security of the DNA raw data. From the discussions I have read here and elsewhere the data from the DNA testing of the knife and the bra clasp are on storage media of some type - hard drive, flash drive, cd, dvd, etc. Can this data be manipulated by a computer expert and saved over the original data points and the date stamp on the file be restored to its prior date (I assume this would be a date around the time of the test) and these changes would thus be undetectible? Given the lenghty delay in surrendering copies of her files the potential for hanky-panky with these files really worries me.

ETA - My one comfort is the extraordinary incompetence shown by the prosecutions technical and scientific expeerts to date makes me doubt they have the skill needed to alter the data and have such alterations go undetected.

 

[Fine]

The historical data show that there was light rain in Perugia on October 30th, but no rain on the 31st or November 1st. And rainfall across the whole month of October 2007 was light to moderate. So I find it hard to believe that the surface of the ground below Filomena's window was particularly muddy, when apparently there had been no precipitation for at least 44 hours before 8.30pm on November 1st 2007.

And even though the latter question isn't directed at me, yes: I think Mignini intended to imply that Knox's neck "wound" was related to the murder, and that Knox herself was trying to conceal it. His use of the phrase "Amanda kept herself covered" clearly (to me) implies - by Mignini - a conscious attempt by Knox to cover her neck, rather than the implication that Knox just happened to be wearing clothing that concealed the mark. And of course the fact that Mignini even argues that Knox "kept herself covered", when clear photographic and video testimony of her outside the cottage the day after the murder shows exactly the opposite, indicates to me that Mignini's trying to spin this issue.

______________________________

The day after the murder? It gets worse. That famous photograph of Amanda outside the cottage, surrounded by cops, and later found hanging on the wall of the Forensic Police headquarters in Rome? The photograph was taken on Saturday, November 3rd!

Still doing her best to hide that lovebite, or neck wound.

///

 

[Alt+F4]

Yes, I have to also wonder if the desperate Defense Team used the old fishing techniques to obtain jailbirds willing to say nice things about Amanda and bad things about Rudy in Court.

You forgot about the jailbird willing to say bad things about Meredith. The defense seems to have no problem with the court considering a jailbrid’s letter claiming that a drug dealer paid 100,000 Euros to have Meredith murdered over an unpaid debt drug debt. It's another sign of desperation on the part of the defense. So much for no worries, the Vecchioti/Conti report will save the day!