Rick Santorum: John McCain Doesn't Understand Torture

[leftysergeant]

Evidence that waterboarding was specifically excluded from the definition of torture?

The Shrub and his merry morons simply declared it not to be torture and schmucks like Sick Rick signed off on it.

(The fact that he was never a soldier may expalin in part why the bloody drongo would believe such a thing, but clearly does not, under any system of laws exculpate him from complicity in war crimes.)

The fact that the little snot does not consider enhanced interogation to be torture proves, without question, that he knows nothing about military science, especially as relates to intelligence. (And I am convinced that he is a stranger to "intelligence" in its mean of "mental abilities" as well.) He has only the word of that deranged torture monkey John Yoo, who is also clearly unfit to render any opinion regarding military practices, that it is not torture.

No bloody fool who takes the word of such morons when dealing with a major issue like whether or not an act is torture is unfit to be POTUS. He is either too stupid or too depraved to function in decent society without a more competent attendent to keep him from choking on his own tongue.

We don't have time for that.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

If you don't want to be labeled a santorum "apologist" then stop trying to convince people that santorum doesn't understand that advanced techniques equal torture.

It's not a matter of an understanding. It's a different position than the one you and I (and the world consensus majority) hold.

Saying that Santorum claimed McCain doesn't understand torture is the same technique as a pro-lifer claiming that someone in favor of pro-choice goes around calling for the murder of babies. That is not in fact the position of pro-choice people, and it doesn't help further any discussion of the actual issues to claim it is.

I'm not worried about being labeled a Santorum apologist because I'm not one. I've made it very clear for years on this very forum that I think waterboarding and "enhanced interrogation" constitutes torture and is immoral and should be considered illegal under the C.A.T. and U.S. law.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

What?...calling santorum an idiot?

"Stupid" is not name calling...it is a term which accurately describes the mental "abilities" of some people.

If you would prefer a different term, I'm open to suggestions.

Nope--it's not about which name.

What you are doing is name calling and is a very poor argumentation technique.

Again, I invite you to search some of the threads on torture in this forum over the last few years and you can see how to argue the case against waterboarding without resorting to name calling or misquoting your opponent.

I often pointed out that in the definition of torture in the C.A.T. and U.S. law includes the intentional infliction of mental harm and that one of the enumerated types of mental harm was the threat of imminent death. The entire point of waterboarding is to make the victim feel at an instinctive level that he is drowning without causing any permanent physical harm.

And I also often pointed out that under the Bush Administration, the U.S. engaged in far more egregious acts of torture, even several cases of beatings and suffocations that resulted in actual death. So their denial that they commit torture is false even under their ultra-narrow definition of what constitutes torture.

 

[R.A.F.]

And, really, John McCain was subjected to intense torture, but not to "enhanced interrogation techniques"? The NVA just skipped right over those?

Notice how joe and sarge have "zeroed in" on other posts and have completely ignored Bob's.

I wonder why.

 

[R.A.F.]

Not to get too far off topic...

And I also often pointed out that under the Bush Administration, the U.S. engaged in far more egregious acts of torture, even several cases of beatings and suffocations that resulted in actual death. So their denial that they commit torture is false even under their ultra-narrow definition of what constitutes torture.

So you agree that Bush is by definition a war criminal??

 

[sarge]

Notice how joe and sarge have "zeroed in" on other posts and have completely ignored Bob's.

I wonder why.

Because he made no point worth addressing. His drive-by was as far off target as your posts have been.

If, after you error has been explained to you, you still believe that anyone has been offering excuses for Santorums stupidity, then there really is no reason to continue the discussion. You are either incapable of or unwilling to understand nuance.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Because he made no point worth addressing. His drive-by was as far off target as your posts have been.

If, after you error has been explained to you, you still believe that anyone has been offering excuses for Santorums stupidity, then there really is no reason to continue the discussion. You are either incapable of or unwilling to understand nuance.

No, I did make a point worth addressing. I made three of them, in fact.

1) Torture by any other name is still torture. "Enhanced interrogation techniques" is still Torture. And whether Santorum intended to or not, he claimed that John McCain does not understand torture when he made his statement regarding enhanced interrogation techniques - regardless of whatever cognitive dissonance the Sen has employed to believe otherwise. That is indisputable. And that makes Santorum a fool.

2) Are we supposed to believe that McCain was never a victim of enhanced interrogation techniques? That the NVA skipped right over those and straight to torture every time?


3) What you and Joe are engaging in is nothing other than apologetics. Twisting meanings to get what you want. And while I understand what you're saying, it doesn't change what Santorum said - nor does it change the meaning of what Santorum said. A rose by any other name and all that jazz. Engage in apologetics if you must, but it changes nothing about what Santorum had to say about McCain's experience with torture/interrogations.

 

[R.A.F.]

Because he made no point worth addressing. His drive-by was as far off target as your posts have been.

Can I call em' or what? I just knew you were going to ignore Bob's question...thanks for proving me right.

 

[R.A.F.]

What you and Joe are engaging in is nothing other than apologetics. Twisting meanings to get what you want.

...and then placing the "blame" on everyone else when they don't agree with those twisted meanings...

Sarge...you and joe are not fooling anyone but yourselves.

 

[R.A.F.]

double post.

 

[R.A.F.]

If, after you error has been explained to you...

There is no "error" to be "explained".

...you still believe that anyone has been offering excuses for Santorums stupidity...

Belief is irrelevant. By your own posts we know that you and joe are (as Bob posted) santorum apologists.

...then there really is no reason to continue the discussion. You are either incapable of or unwilling to understand nuance.

So instead of proving yourself correct or conceding, you're going to run away.

Typical...

 

[Emet]

Who came up with the term enhanced interrogation anyways?

Wasn't it the Bush administration?

Wasn't it just a way of using creative language to justify the use of well known torture techniques--and avoid the word torture?

 

[thaiboxerken]

The entire body of opinions provided by the agents of the previouys chief executive of the United States.

The President and his Attorney General declared water boarding to not be torture. In the absence of a finding by a court, that is quite defining.

Of course, courts have since (rightly) ruled the obvious - in the US, water boarding is torture.

So it's definition was changed during the Bush years, therefore during Bush's rule, it wasn't really torture?!

Also, why the crap do you think the opinions of Bush/Cheney's yes men trumps international law and the anti-torture agreements that the USA agreed to?

Also, you've just agreed that water boarding is obviously torture. If so, then why are you apologizing for Santorum's position that it is not torture? Are you so naive that you actually think these guys are sincere in their belief that it's not torture?!

Either way, for Rick to say McCain doesn't understand "enhanced interrogation" is the same as saying McCain doesn't understand torture. Why? Because he's saying McCain doesn't understand the difference between torture and enhanced interrogation.

 

[varwoche]

It occurs to me that he'd first need to win the GOP primary. His last effort in that regard was a farce. That you take him seriously as a candidate is risible.

Well, you've got glib putdown covered (ad nauseum). Now maybe you can work on contributing something useful.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The entire body of opinions provided by the agents of the previouys chief executive of the United States.

The President and his Attorney General declared water boarding to not be torture. In the absence of a finding by a court, that is quite defining.

Of course, courts have since (rightly) ruled the obvious - in the US, water boarding is torture.

Not at all, just shows that they don't want to prosecute them for the crimes they committed. I was following orders is a very good defense really when your side wins.

 

[tyr_13]

3) What you and Joe are engaging in is nothing other than apologetics. Twisting meanings to get what you want. And while I understand what you're saying, it doesn't change what Santorum said - nor does it change the meaning of what Santorum said. A rose by any other name and all that jazz. Engage in apologetics if you must, but it changes nothing about what Santorum had to say about McCain's experience with torture/interrogations.

This is point is simply false. Neither Joe nor sarge have tried to do anything offering apologetics for Santorum. They both believe Santorum is wrong, completely.

The only difference is that they are critical of him for his actual faults. To say that Rick Santorum claimed that McCain doesn't understand torture is true because enhanced interrogation is torture, but false in that it isn't what he thought he was claiming. Santorum is so messed up that he doesn't see the link between the two, in addition to not realize that McCain could have been 'interrogated' with 'enhanced' methods in addition to being tortured.

If you believe that Santorum was actually claiming that McCain doesn't understand torture, that's actually giving Santorum the credit of knowing that 'enhanced interrogation' and 'torture' are the same bloody thing.

 

[leftysergeant]

Any way you look at it, Sick Rick comes out looking unfit for his chosen career path.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

This is point is simply false. Neither Joe nor sarge have tried to do anything offering apologetics for Santorum. They both believe Santorum is wrong, completely.

The only difference is that they are critical of him for his actual faults. To say that Rick Santorum claimed that McCain doesn't understand torture is true because enhanced interrogation is torture, but false in that it isn't what he thought he was claiming. Santorum is so messed up that he doesn't see the link between the two, in addition to not realize that McCain could have been 'interrogated' with 'enhanced' methods in addition to being tortured.

If you believe that Santorum was actually claiming that McCain doesn't understand torture, that's actually giving Santorum the credit of knowing that 'enhanced interrogation' and 'torture' are the same bloody thing.

Saying a rapist wasn't really a rapist because he didn't realize it was rape is still apologetics. Even if you still believe what he/she actually did was wrong. Trying to minimize the value of what someone did/said is apologetics - even if you still disagree with the statement/beliefs behind it.

 

[leftysergeant]

Sick Rick is a lawyer. He had no grounds on which to base a position that enhanced interrogation is not torture. He should also have seen that torture monkey Yoo was full of crap and just pulling stuff out of his underwear.

If he is so unable to comprehend the principles which are supposed to guide our handling of prisoners of war, he has no business holding elected office at a federal level. He is not mentally up to the job.

 

[R.A.F.]

If you believe that Santorum was actually claiming that McCain doesn't understand torture, that's actually giving Santorum the credit of knowing that 'enhanced interrogation' and 'torture' are the same bloody thing.

The only "credit" being allowed santorum is that he is lying when he says that he thinks enhanced techniques are not torture.

He's a politician for pete's sake...by definition that makes him a liar.