Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Barbie Nadeau's report on today's proceedings is now up.

Interestingly she quotes Carla Vecchiotti as saying "We just want maximum collaboration,” which is subtly different from saying they had received maximum co-operation as was reported earlier. They now have everything they need, but it does sound a bit more like they hadn't had it previously.

She also says the five imprisoned witnesses are Aviello who says his brother did it, Alessi who says Guede told him he did it alone - and the other three are prisoners who will back up Alessi's story.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...nda-knox-trial-the-tragicomedy-of-her-appeal/
 
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pilot padron said:
FACT: Read it and weep

"In front of the judges one of the experts stressed that the "maximum cooperation" was provided by the scientific police who performed the technical tests in the course of the investigations.
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In view of Ms Nadeau's rather different interpretation can you provide an actual quote to back up your alleged FACT?
 
pilot padron said:
FACT: Read it and weep

"In front of the judges one of the experts stressed that the "maximum cooperation" was provided by the scientific police who performed the technical tests in the course of the investigations.
Tgcom

http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/cronac...dna-andra-depositata-entro-il-30-giugno.shtml

Indeed 'an interesting day in Court

PS:
1) Speaking of experiences, my readings of nearly all of Mr Knox's PR provided, polished, and/or approved past statements make him second only to Mr Mellas as indeed a *very* untrustworthy, but understandably similarly biased close family member

2) Spare me any non argument related, OT, 'communications engineering' stimulated criticisms of sentence structure, perfect punctuation etccccccccccccccccccccc

3) I yield with alacrity to your implied personal experiences with:"living in their own hermetically-sealed bubble of indoctrinated garbage......
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Good afternoon pilot padron!

Do not change a user's name so as to insult.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Gaspode


Is everything ok?

You seem a little..... defensive in your attempts at an argument here.

And it looks like your little "gotcha" above might per haps turn out to be a translation error. Ach, schade!!
 
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christianahannah said:
I am not exactly sure what della Vedova is stating from this article:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110521/wl_afp/italyusbritaincrimemurdertrialforensic

He doesn't say the defense does not have these documents now but it would be difficult to know if this is his intent without the original Italian.

The court adjourned in summer 2009 for the prosecution to gather together all material requested by the defense (this was supposedly in addition to what was required by law). According to Massei this was done and the defense has it in their possession.
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I agree that it's not ideal to deal with translations, but it appears to me that dalla Vedova is clearly stating two things: a) the police still hadn't handed over the source data to the independent experts; and b) they hadn't given the data to the defence teams either.

"The experts asked the forensic police to hand over information essential to their report. They still haven't received it and will therefore request a 40 days extension," Carlo della Vedova, Knox's lawyer, said ahead of the hearing.

"It's not the first time we've asked for the police to hand over this information," della Vedova added.
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(my bolding)


Additionally, I would have thought that had the police given the source data to the defence teams some time ago, the defence teams would have been more than happy to pass it on to the independent experts themselves to expedite proceedings.

ETA: the fact that the article misspells dalla Vedova's name as "della Vedova" doesn't fill one with hughe amounts of confidence over the quality of the translation...
 
Matthew Best said:
Barbie Nadeau's report on today's proceedings is now up.

Interestingly she quotes Carla Vecchiotti as saying "We just want maximum collaboration,” which is subtly different from saying they had received maximum co-operation as was reported earlier. They now have everything they need, but it does sound a bit more like they hadn't had it previously.

She also says the five imprisoned witnesses are Aviello who says his brother did it, Alessi who says Guede told him he did it alone - and the other three are prisoners who will back up Alessi's story.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...nda-knox-trial-the-tragicomedy-of-her-appeal/
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Interesting Sky News is reporting 1 of the 5 is stating Meredith was murdered because of a drug debt. In addition, I believe there is conflict in Alessi statement that Guede acted alone and Raffaele and Amanda were not in the cottage with Aviello’s statement that his brother and I believe an unnamed Albanian murdered Meredith, so 3 different conflicting versions so far.
 
LondonJohn said:
I agree that it's not ideal to deal with translations, but it appears to me that dalla Vedova is clearly stating two things: a) the police still hadn't handed over the source data to the independent experts; and b) they hadn't given the data to the defence teams either.
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I don't read the last statement as saying that, just this has been requested by the defense in the past, not that they never received it.

Additionally, I would have thought that had the police given the source data to the defence teams some time ago, the defence teams would have been more than happy to pass it on to the independent experts themselves to expedite proceedings.
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I would think from a legal position this would have to come from the direct source and not a copy thereof.

ETA: the fact that the article misspells dalla Vedova's name as "della Vedova" doesn't fill one with hughe amounts of confidence over the quality of the translation...
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While accuracy is always important, I can excuse misspellings of names and words as long as that does not change the meaning of what is said. Translations are indeed another matter.
 
More communications engineerering

LondonJohn said:
Good afternoon stipilot!

Is everything ok?

You seem a little..... defensive in your attempts at an argument here.

And it looks like your little "gotcha" above might per haps turn out to be a translation error. Ach, schade!!
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bolded by Pilot (third person is deliberate and due to popular appeal)

'Looks like' is to me one of the shallowest among very many past very shallow attempts at 'documentation' of arguments for this 'fact based' forum.

Was my above documentation, per haps *too* fact based and not 'communications engineered' enough?
Thus to you it becomes "defensive" ?
 
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Bruce Fisher said:
Bruce Fisher wonders why Pilot is speaking in the third person. Bruce Fisher wonders if one of Pilot's other personalities accidentally took over.
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Ha, amusing. But not surprising.

The Guede-Groupie who runs a Knox hate site similarly suffers from a perpetual chorus of voices inside his head continually jockeying for access to his well-worn keyboard.
 
Does anybody know if Monica Napoleoni turned up in court today,or if Patriza Stefanoni turned up or is she sulking over being forced to hand over files she had being hiding.
 
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Amanda's fan club tells us that Antonio Curatolo is not a reliable witness because he's a homeless, incarcerated heroin dealer. Now the defense comes up a heinous monster that beat a baby to death with a shovel and we're supposed to believe what he says is trustworthy.

Next, it seems the defense received a letter from yet another convict, this time making the claim that Meredith was a heavy drug user who was murder by unnamed (of course) drug dealers she owed money to. I wonder who leaked this bit of information?

Which was there more of today, desperation or hypocrisy?

Despite the fact that “jailhouse snitches” are widely regarded as the least reliable form of evidence in a criminal case Amanda’s defense will get this animal out of prison for a least a day. I know the cult of Amanda thinks there is no other victim in the world except Amanda Knox. But here’s a photo of a real victim, 17-month old Tommaso Onofri, the child murdered by Amanda’s new “super witness”.

tommy.jpg
 
pilot padron said:
bolded by Pilot (third person is deliberate and due to popular appeal)

'Looks like' is to me one of the shallowest among very many past very shallow attempts at 'documentation' of arguments for this 'fact based' forum.

Was my above documentation, per haps *too* fact based and not 'communications engineered' enough?
Thus to you it becomes "defensive" ?
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Wonderful rebuttal!

I'm sorry if my arguments were not agricultural enough for you though...
 
Alt+F4 said:
Amanda's fan club tells us that Antonio Curatolo is not a reliable witness because he's a homeless, incarcerated heroin dealer. Now the defense comes up a heinous monster that beat a baby to death with a shovel and we're supposed to believe what he says is trustworthy.

Next, it seems the defense received a letter from yet another convict, this time making the claim that Meredith was a heavy drug user who was murder by unnamed (of course) drug dealers she owed money to. I wonder who leaked this bit of information?

Which was there more of today, desperation or hypocrisy?

Despite the fact that “jailhouse snitches” are widely regarded as the least reliable form of evidence in a criminal case Amanda’s defense will get this animal out of prison for a least a day. I know the cult of Amanda thinks there is no other victim in the world except Amanda Knox. But here’s a photo of a real victim, 17-month old Tommaso Onofri, the child murdered by Amanda’s new “super witness”.

[qimg]http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/altf4_photo/tommy.jpg[/qimg]
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I don't see either Curatolo or this guy as reliable. Of course Massei found Curatolo to be reliable and credible and Mignini well, "full stop". We now see that Mignini knew Curatolo's legal issues as he admitted to that in the CNN interview.

I don't agree with the defense strategy at all on this one, as I have stated before.
 
the "test" performed showing that nara could not have heard footsteps was a new one on me. Also new quotes from Mignini further implicating himself with the "she stood at the doorway" theory was a new one for me at least.
 
Alt+F4 said:
Amanda's fan club tells us that Antonio Curatolo is not a reliable witness because he's a homeless, incarcerated heroin dealer. Now the defense comes up a heinous monster that beat a baby to death with a shovel and we're supposed to believe what he says is trustworthy.
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Curatolo is not a reliable witness because his evidence doesn't gel with reality. Remember the non-existant night club buses he used to determine how long he saw AK and RS? Remeber how he claimed the square was tidy that night because of the market eariler in the day, a market that didn't happen that day due to the holiday? That is why he is unreliable, not because he is a homeless, incarcerated heroin dealer.

Likewise Alessi's reliability should be evaluated by what he says and how well it matches other evidence given, not by what he did to get in jail. Your entire post is one big poisoning of the well, nice attempt though, I'm sure all those that support your version of things and refuse to discuss the evidence because they are too busy abusing people will enjoy your fallacy though.
 
Alt+F4 said:
Amanda's fan club tells us that Antonio Curatolo is not a reliable witness because he's a homeless, incarcerated heroin dealer. Now the defense comes up a heinous monster that beat a baby to death with a shovel and we're supposed to believe what he says is trustworthy.

Next, it seems the defense received a letter from yet another convict, this time making the claim that Meredith was a heavy drug user who was murder by unnamed (of course) drug dealers she owed money to. I wonder who leaked this bit of information?

Which was there more of today, desperation or hypocrisy?

Despite the fact that “jailhouse snitches” are widely regarded as the least reliable form of evidence in a criminal case Amanda’s defense will get this animal out of prison for a least a day. I know the cult of Amanda thinks there is no other victim in the world except Amanda Knox. But here’s a photo of a real victim, 17-month old Tommaso Onofri, the child murdered by Amanda’s new “super witness”.

[qimg]http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/altf4_photo/tommy.jpg[/qimg]
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No, Curatolo is not a reliable witness because:

a) He's demonstrably mentally unstable (viz his Jesus comparisons in his March testimony)

b) He admits himself that he was almost certainly using heroin on the night of the murder

c) He is demonstrably wrong in certain key elements of his testimony - most notably, of course, about the disco buses

d) He has a highly questionable relationship with the Perugia authorities - a relationship whereby he was apparently filmed or photographed dealing heroin (possibly to a police plant) in 2004, yet not prosecuted for this crime until 2010 - during which time he helpfully supplied testimony favourable to the police/prosecution in the Kercher trial.

You categorically don't understand the reasons why Curatolo is so untrustworthy. Yes, had it been revealed during the first trial that he was under investigation for heroin dealing, his credibility would inevitably have been dented. But it's all the other factors listed above that destroy his entire credibility.

I (and others) are in no doubt that the inmate witnesses start from a position of lower trustworthiness owing to the crimes that have put them in prison. But if you really think that the only reason why someone like Alessi would state that Guede told him Knox and Sollecito weren't involved in the murder (a conversation which was apparently witnessed by three other inmates who will also testify) is that Alessi fancies a day out from prison, then I suggest that you're probably wrong. There might be some other reason for Alessi - and three other inmates - to lie about this, of course, but I can't for the moment see what that reason might be.
 
spartacus said:
the "test" performed showing that nara could not have heard footsteps was a new one on me. Also new quotes from Mignini further implicating himself with the "she stood at the doorway" theory was a new one for me at least.
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She had the best seat (SRO) in the "amphitheater".
 
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