General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Matt Giwer]

Did you know Matt is a Holocaust denier?

Why do you compliment me?

 

[Matt Giwer]

The Israeli theocracy

Author Kaniuk seeks to cancel 'Jewish' nationality in court

A state that uses religion for state purposes is a theocracy.

This feeling has intensified recently as he became a grandfather and learned that his grandchild is defined in the Population Registry as an "American Christian."

...

He explains that he was never religious and never kept the religious obligations, and even though he was born to a Jewish mother he is asking not to be registered as a Jew. The petition states that "the plaintiff would prefer to be registered as an Israeli under the 'nationality' heading, but this is still not possible since the plaintiff cannot present a document showing change of religion since he is not changing his religion."

Religion by birth is a religious concept.

Israeli actions are jewish actions by its own declaration.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Originally Posted by Matt Giwer View Post
NO ONE, absolutely no one FORCED Jews to go to Palestine.

Six million of them were murdered in Europe between 1939 and 1945.

To stay behind after the killing was over would have been to live in proximity to those who carried out or blithely ignored the slaughter. A situation that would have been intolerable.

Yes, they were forced out.

At some point I have to wonder just what defect or set of defects my correspondents suffer.

Is it total ignorance of Zionism? Do they now know the intent to expel the Palestinians and steal their property was announced in the early 1920s? Or do they not know the years of the war?

Is there some defect which causes them to believe Jabotinsky was forced to announce because Hitler was sitting in a Bavarian prison at the time? Do they not know the Jews in Palestine started forming terrorist organizations in the late 1920s and started bombing markets a few years later?

Is there some aphasic idiosyncrasy that says Palestinians must suffer for affronts to them by Europeans?

Zionism was founded the year before Hitler was born so clearly some see going to Palestine was necessitated by him -- or at least his pregnant mother.

One must cut out the carp and address the very obvious fact the Jews who went there knew exactly what they were doing. They have no business whining when Palestinians respond as they knew the Palestinians would respond.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Edited by Tricky: 

Edited for rule 12.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Matt, would you also agree that the Americas, Australia, and New Zealand are also stolen lands and the current non indigenous residents are also "occupiers" ?

If by that you are agreeing that Israel committed genocide so be it.

I can only speak for the US where there are treaties with the Indian tribes in which they ceded the land to the US government. What is ceded is not stolen. If the tribes today claim the treaties are defective they can turn to the courts to have them annulled. In reality almost all the court cases by the Indians are to have the treaties enforced.

When and if Palestinians cede their private property now in Israel to Israel the lands will cease to be stolen. Until that time the land remains stolen. Until that time the owners have the right to use deadly force against the thieves.

Should you think you have been clever and have come up with something new review the material on the first URL in my sig before posting it. The Indian one is so ignorant and lame I would have thought people to have more self-respect than to raise it.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Matt wants Israel destroyed and gone and says it.

As a matter of fact I carefully avoid saying that. I do expect Israel to permit the Palestinians the same justice it demands for Jews. If that leads to the end of an Apartheid state so much the better.

The nature of Israel's creation was such that its victims would never cease attempting to rectify the crimes done to them by Jews.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

At some point I have to wonder just what defect or set of defects my correspondents suffer.

Says the Holocaust denier.

Zionism was founded the year before Hitler was born so clearly some see going to Palestine was necessitated by him -- or at least his pregnant mother.

Israel wasn't founded the year Hitler was born. It was founded after Hitler murdered six million jews.

 

[fttw]

So yes, it is perfectly acceptable and within the context of our faith, to hold Jews to a higher standard

But you're not doing it within the context of our faith. You're doing it on a public forum, and it took you 7 pages to get to the point where you're prepared to say that your criticisms of Israel result from holding it to a higher standard than other countries - on religious grounds.

Sounds like religious bigotry combined with a bit of racism to me.

 

[Skeptic]

By the way, the "moderate" Abbas declared today the Palestinians will never "cease struggling" until Israel is destroyed through the "right of return".

So what's the difference between Hamas and Abbas? Not much, it seems to me. Perhaps a disagreement on the best way to destroy Israel (international pressure vs. bombs), but not on the essence.

 

[The Fool]

By the way, the "moderate" Abbas declared today the Palestinians will never "cease struggling" until Israel is destroyed through the "right of return".

So what's the difference between Hamas and Abbas? Not much, it seems to me. Perhaps a disagreement on the best way to destroy Israel (international pressure vs. bombs), but not on the essence.

What percentage of Non Jewish citizens would it require to destroy Israel?

 

[The Fool]

Such as recognizing Israel's right to exist? Removing language from their official documents calling for Israel's destruction?

And this has to happen as a condition of getting their state?

Tell you what...I can save you a lot of Typing by giving you a general rule. Then you can validate any number of examples.

If its expected of all other Nations it should be expected of a Palestinian nation. Lets see how you can misunderstand that.

 

[The Fool]

I look at the world and I see states like North Korea, Iraq under Saddam Hussein, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran....and I don't see any consistent "rules" that are applied to them.

So...just what are these rules? What is this standard you claim they will eventually be held to?

How long are you prepared to give me to type out all International laws on this forum?

As an example can I ask you about the sanctions against and ultimate invasion of Iraq.Is it your opinion that this was not done according to international law or that law was not applied consistently?

you sound a bit like the Monty Python "what did the romans ever do for us" scene.

 

[The Fool]

But you're not doing it within the context of our faith. You're doing it on a public forum, and it took you 7 pages to get to the point where you're prepared to say that your criticisms of Israel result from holding it to a higher standard than other countries - on religious grounds.

Sounds like religious bigotry combined with a bit of racism to me.

Holy thread zombies....where did this old one pop up from?

 

[a_unique_person]

By the way, the "moderate" Abbas declared today the Palestinians will never "cease struggling" until Israel is destroyed through the "right of return".

Evidence?

So what's the difference between Hamas and Abbas? Not much, it seems to me. Perhaps a disagreement on the best way to destroy Israel (international pressure vs. bombs), but not on the essence.

All countries change over the passage of centuries. Israel will become a part of the Arab world, just as Australia is becoming a part of Asia, South Africa a part of Africa, the USA a part of the rest of America.

 

[Mycroft]

Holy thread zombies....where did this old one pop up from?

Quite funny, really. Watching you argue that a "standing offer" isn't really a standing offer if they might have to apply for it.

Silly nonsense.

 

[Stout]

If by that you are agreeing that Israel committed genocide so be it.

I can only speak for the US where there are treaties with the Indian tribes in which they ceded the land to the US government. What is ceded is not stolen. If the tribes today claim the treaties are defective they can turn to the courts to have them annulled. In reality almost all the court cases by the Indians are to have the treaties enforced.

When and if Palestinians cede their private property now in Israel to Israel the lands will cease to be stolen. Until that time the land remains stolen. Until that time the owners have the right to use deadly force against the thieves.

Should you think you have been clever and have come up with something new review the material on the first URL in my sig before posting it. The Indian one is so ignorant and lame I would have thought people to have more self-respect than to raise it.

So I'll take that as a no then, and work on the idea that you were using the whole stolen land argument as a rhetorical device. nothing more.

Cheers

 

[bigjelmapro]

I don't ever feel inclined to Matts comments. I said if he has said so, then that is evidence. I don't know why this has to be so difficult.

But you do feel inclined to comment that there's no evidence for this. Next time, just don't reply with this useless drivel...

 

[bigjelmapro]

Can I just clarify this. Mycroft knows better than Fool does what Fool meant when he said what he said. Bizarre.

No, Mycroft has finally nailed down TF. Simple.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Bigjel, I was trying to be facetious with that one and echo the hyperbole of the anti-Israel left. Obviously I failed

I'm still pro-Israel however I'm not sending out unconditional love.

Nobody is asking you to be unconditional. I did get a whiff of satire from your post (knowing your position from previous posts), but then again, for sake of clarity, I responded, albeit slightly intoxicated Sorry if I came off a bit abrasive. Wasn't my intention.

Ditch that Likud plank and reign in those settlers. I don't care if the settlers bought the land, it's still land that's going to end up being in a 'foreign" country..eventually.

Wikileaks (ie 'Palestine papers') should display at least some of the background information regarding what was and has been on the table for decades already, especially the land swaps, which includes portions of the current Jerusalem distrinct and the WB. The Israeli public and the Israeli government as a whole, IMO, would be more accepting such final status agreements between the Israeli government and the PA than the Palestinian public and the PA. Especially the Palestinian government because any form of concessions on the Palestinian side will be seen as heresy.

When it comes to the Likud platform, its not set in stone and I don't see how this is even used as a guide to the dealings with the current coalition government. As for settlers, there need to be stiffer consequences to violence, be it attacks on Palestinians or damage to property. This is being done, which I can't say for the Palestinian side.

If Israel is concerned about winning it's case in the court of world opinion, those are two steps it could take to help ensure that victory.

That's a concern sure, but I doubt in the court of world opinion, Israel will ever win especially with the incessant cannon fodder Hamas/Fatah/etc. churns out with its subsequent PR ploys. Israel could definitely do better though....

Sorry for the late reply.

 

[WildCat]

Tell you what...I can save you a lot of Typing by giving you a general rule. Then you can validate any number of examples.

If its expected of all other Nations it should be expected of a Palestinian nation. Lets see how you can misunderstand that.

Why do you keep dodging the question? You whine, cry, and moan about how misunderstood you are. You called me a liar for claiming that you don't expect anything at all from the Palestinians in order for them to get statehood, yet it appears this is exactly the case.

I was 100% correect all along, you want to give them a state without them having to do anything at all, then you think a Palestinian government coalition of terrorist groups will magically become a responsible state.

It must be embarrassing for a_u_p and bikerdruid who rushed to your defense, ony to have you throw them under the bus by demondtrating I was right all along.