Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

But Frank and the journalists covering this story want it to be the public's business, after all "no comment" or "on advice of my attorney I cannot speak of details" is an answer which conveys the meaning of "it is not our business." That is not what has been done - there has been progressive leaking of details and that implies wanting the public to know.

And there is never anything wrong with questioning what has been given and wanting to know more. Some details do not matter to get wrong - the wrong spelling of the judge's name (which Dempsey has corrected, I am not sure any other journalist has done so) but other details are important as to the accuracy and truthfulness of the story.

There is a matter of trust between journalists and the public. Perhaps some would argue those writing about Frank's event are not journalists. Well, I guess I would argue that even bloggers, commenters, posters, et al are the new age of journalism and as such should strive to adhere to the basic tenets of the old journalism.

I think you're misconstruing my position. To me, it's perfectly OK for Sfarzo to let it be known that the reason why Perugia Shock went offline was that there was a court order obtained by Mignini, alleging defamation, which forced Google to remove the site. Quite why he should need to provide all the corroborating documentation to prove this (and, by extension, to prove that he's not a liar) is the part I can't understand.

I'm growing a bit sick and tired of all this "Provide us with the Court Order, Frank, or we won't believe you". I think that most of the pro-guilt crowd who have essentially been calling Sfarzo, Dempsey and the CPJ liars and/or dupes have a certain amount of egg on their faces already, with the release of the fax cover sheet. Although their baying calls tell us quite a bit about their powers of reasoning, such that they even thought that it would be in Sfarzo's, Dempsey's or the CPJ's interest to tell such a lie in the first place.

The only outstanding question to be answered is exactly which part(s) of Perugia Shock Mignini - and Judge Belsito - see as potentially defamatory. I would imagine that this is a question uppermost in the minds of Sfarzo and his lawyers (and probably the CPJ) right now. Frankly, the wider public has no right to know unless and until there's a trial - and indeed it may not be wise for Sfarzo or anyone else to be revealing this information, even if they do know it.

What's more, all of this is entirely peripheral to the trial of Knox and Sollecito: even if it speaks to the character of Mignini, it's only evidence directly related to the murder of Meredith Kercher (or, in this case, the lack of it) that's going to determine the ultimate fate of Knox and Sollecito. As I've said before, I think it's instructive that this issue has been seized upon with such apparent relish by pro-guilt commentators. It seems that by occupying themselves with a wholly-imaginary conspiracy theory about this court order, they are avoiding having to discuss how the appeal is exposing gaping holes in the prosecution's case against Knox and Sollecito.

 

[Alt+F4]

RoseMontague,

This astonishing point might be a good thread-starter. One has to wonder whether or not PM Mignini would like to incarcerate Frank. I hope he is a careful man.

Why? Most of the world has criminal defamation laws.

 

[Kaosium]

Why? Most of the world has criminal defamation laws.

Not for crap like this they don't, except in places like...the now defunct Soviet Union. I remember someone mocking Frank when he wrote that post, it kinda seems prescient now...

 

[Alt+F4]

Not for crap like this they don't, except in places like...the now defunct Soviet Union. I remember someone mocking Frank when he wrote that post, it kinda seems prescient now...

Sorry no. When the Soviet authorities were displeased with someone's activities they hit them with a lot more than a criminal defemation suit. Frank just doesn't understand the history of the former Soviet Union and what it means to be an actual dissident.

Italy isn't even in the lead when it comes to slapping people with defemation suits. You can see which countries are here:

http://www.article19.org/advocacy/defamationmap/map/?dataSet=imprisonment

 

[Chris C]

Sorry no. When the Soviet authorities were displeased with someone's activities they hit them with a lot more than a criminal defemation suit. Frank just doesn't understand the history of the former Soviet Union and what it means to be an actual dissident.

Italy isn't even in the lead when it comes to slapping people with defemation suits. You can see which countries are here:

http://www.article19.org/advocacy/defamationmap/map/?dataSet=imprisonment

How accurate is that map? It has italy at no known cases for criminal defamation imprisonment or fined. Plus it only has them at 11-99 civil cases per year. That means mignini accounts for 20 percent of Italy's defemation cases.

 

[Alt+F4]

How accurate is that map? It has italy at no known cases for criminal defamation imprisonment or fined. Plus it only has them at 11-99 civil cases per year. That means mignini accounts for 20 percent of Italy's defemation cases.

About ARTICLE 19:

ARTICLE 19 is a human rights organisation with a specific mandate and focus on the defence and promotion of freedom of expression and freedom of information worldwide.

It's advocacy work includes:

ARTICLE 19 raises awareness and campaigns against wide use of defamation and libel laws to censor free expression.

In regard to the maps:

ARTICLE 19 collated the data from a rage of sources, including primary research, partner organisations, and an international network of jof approximately 800 lawyers, journalists, activists and academics.

So do you have any evidence that their information isn't correct? Can you describe even one case where someone who was convicted of criminal defemation by an Italian court was sent to prison for it (and no other crime)?

 

[Kaosium]

Sorry no. When the Soviet authorities were displeased with someone's activities they hit them with a lot more than a criminal defemation suit. Frank just doesn't understand the history of the former Soviet Union and what it means to be an actual dissident.

Italy isn't even in the lead when it comes to slapping people with defemation suits. You can see which countries are here:

http://www.article19.org/advocacy/defamationmap/map/?dataSet=imprisonment

Which just makes Mignini's actions that more unusual, doesn't it?

It's over, Alt. There's no 'recovery' from this. The fat lady is singing so high the glass is cracking. Did you see that CNN special? He was playing with his little balls mewling about the strawberries and the 'other key.' It won't be too long before they clap him in irons and frogmarch him to the brig. There will be no drunken Jose Ferrer scene at the end for him either, only "Shame and eternal shame, nothing but shame!"

"Whom Gods destroy they first make mad."

 

[billyryan]

So do I, in fact I regret something I said earlier about thinking elements of this situation hilarious. Sometimes I find something to laugh at so I don't cry, but there's nothing funny about the situation Frank is in. While I only have highly limited information to go on, something tells me Mignini is not a man who likes being defied. If Frank is posting on Perugia Shock again I hope he is doing it from a secure, undisclosed location.

I suppose that sounds paranoid, maybe it is, but Mignini stands to lose everything and like a dying lion might lash out. Low odds I would hope, and I'm not talking about a plutonium sandwich or anything, but I do suspect a man who spent his life putting people in jail might well decide to put one more in the can if it looks like he might just be headed there himself. (eventually) Perhaps he is so delusional he doesn't see it coming, but that wasn't the impression I got from the CNN special. He was sweating like a newbie poker player going all-in trying to bluff with a busted flush.

Kaosium:
I have being interested for a long time to find out what would be the likely consequences for Mignini, Stefanoni,Giobbi,Claudia Matteini,Monica Napoleoni, the postal police computer technicians and all the other liars framers involved in the prosecution case,Judge Massei's decision to refuse a look at the DNA evidence by independent experts.If history tells us anything is that all these people have to do is keep their heads down and the system will protect them from any consequences
The case of either the Birmingham six or the guildford four a judge decided that no charges could be brought against those involved because he felt they could not get a fair trial. I have always thought that the judge who gave that verdict done so to rub salt to the wounds of the men and woman who spent fifteen years in prison for having dared question their infallibility and having made their system look bad.
Of all the people who helped this miscarriage of justice to develop we all probably have our favourites who we would like to see go to prison.For me at least Judge Claudia Matteini the first judge who set all of this off who indicted Amanda for slander I find it interesting that Mignini did not use her in his case against Frank Sfarzo I would like to see her taken on free holiday to Capeanna

 

[Chris C]

About ARTICLE 19:


It's advocacy work includes:



In regard to the maps:



So do you have any evidence that their information isn't correct? Can you describe even one case where someone who was convicted of criminal defemation by an Italian court was sent to prison for it (and no other crime)?

It said sent to prison and fined. Yet how many were found guilty and had the sentence suspended and still fined? Then again the criminal defamation portion of the map hasn't been updated since (2007?). I find it funny you are asking me to prove your article is wrong, when you are constantly asking the pro knox side to prove their information is right. You have any evidence their information is correct? However to me that article means nothing. All it shows is either Mignini is an enigma that constantly abuses Italy's justice system to silence his critics and/or Italy's justice system is screwed up concerning defamation.

 

[Alt+F4]

Which just makes Mignini's actions that more unusual, doesn't it?

Nope, like most other Italian defemation cases, if the folks Mignini instigated against are found guilty, they will just walk....just like everyone else does in these type of cases. There is no criminal defemation gulag in Italy and perpetucal matyr Frank will be just fine.

It's over, Alt. There's no 'recovery' from this. The fat lady is singing so high the glass is cracking. Did you see that CNN special? He was playing with his little balls mewling about the strawberries and the 'other key.'

You do know that what CNN broadcasts has nothing to do with what happens in this Italian court, right?

It won't be too long before they clap him in irons and frogmarch him to the brig.

Very funny. Who is this "they"?

 

[Alt+F4]

It said sent to prison and fined. Yet how many were found guilty and had the sentence suspended and still fined? Then again the criminal defamation portion of the map hasn't been updated since (2007?). I find it funny you are asking me to prove your article is wrong, when you are constantly asking the pro knox side to prove their information is right. You have any evidence their information is correct? However to me that article means nothing. All it shows is either Mignini is an enigma that constantly abuses Italy's justice system to silence his critics and/or Italy's justice system is screwed up concerning defamation.

Hey you're the one saying that it might not be correct. Prove you're own argument, I'm not gonna do your homework for you.

 

[Chris C]

For me at least Judge Claudia Matteini the first judge who set all of this off who indicted Amanda for slander I find it interesting that Mignini did not use her in his case against Frank Sfarzo I would like to see her taken on free holiday to Capeanna

There might be some kinda limit to how many times a judge can oversee different cases for a plaintiff either active or compounded. Which could be the reason Mignini had to go to an out of town judge against Frank. I remember reading somewhere that a judge couldn't rule against a defendant more than once in Italy.(don't know how accurate that is)

 

[Chris C]

Hey you're the one saying that it might not be correct. Prove you're own argument, I'm not gonna do your homework for you.

I just did prove my argument. You used a map thats over 4 years old. Maybe you could post a map thats more up to date?

 

[Kaosium]

Kaosium:
I have being interested for a long time to find out what would be the likly consequences for Mignini, Stefanoni,Giobbi,Claudia Matteini,Monica Napoleoni, the postal police computer tecnicians and all the other liars framers involved in the prosecution case,Judge Massei's decision to refuse a look at the DNA evidence by independent experts.If history tells us anything is that all these people have to do is keep their heads down and the system will protect them from any consequences.

I think you're right about most of them, Mignini might be the only head that actually rolls, fair or not. Even he might end up with just a slap and a tickle, sent out to merely 'retirement.' I think there's others deserving, perhaps even moreso, but accountability will fall on Mignini is my guess, plus he has the prior conviction so he'll be the obvious one to take the fall.

The case of either the Birgningham six or the guildford four a judge decided that no charges could be brought against those involved because he felt they could not get a fair trial. I have always thought that the judge who gave that verdict done so to rub salt to the wounds of the men and woman who spent fifteen years in prison for having dared question their infabability and having made their system look bad.

Right now I think the most interesting question is trying to delineate between the corrupt and the incompetent. I can kinda guess where you might stand on that.

I recall that I started on the opposite side of that question, and have been trending the other direction. There's simply a limit to how much 'constructive incompetence' I can accept.

Of all the people who helped this miscarriage of justice to develope we all probally have our favourites who we would like to see go to prison.For me at least Judge Claudia Matteini the first judge who set all of this off who indicted Amanda for slander I find it interesting that Mignini did not use her in his case against Frank Sfarzo I would like to see her taken on free holiday to Capeanna

That's an interesting choice! Would you expand on that?

 

[Alt+F4]

I just did prove my argument. You used a map thats over 4 years old. Maybe you could post a map thats more up to date?

ARTICLE 19 hasn't updated their map but their site was updated yesterday and guess what! Not one single thing about abuse of defemation suits in Italy. So what evidence do you have that Mignini's actions are a deviation from the way things are done in Italy? Yikes, even Google was sued for criminal defemation in Italy (and lost).

 

[Chris C]

ARTICLE 19 hasn't updated their map but their site was updated yesterday and guess what! Not one single thing about abuse of defemation suits in Italy. So what evidence do you have that Mignini's actions are a deviation from the way things are done in Italy? Yikes, even Google was sued for criminal defemation in Italy (and lost).

What side of the argument are you on now? First your arguing against us, then your arguing the same thing we are saying. I dont even know why I engage in a conversation with you. You hop around like a rabbit never defending the same argument longer than a few posts.

 

[Kaosium]

Nope, like most other Italian defemation cases, if the folks Mignini instigated against are found guilty, they will just walk....just like everyone else does in these type of cases. There is no criminal defemation gulag in Italy and perpetucal matyr Frank will be just fine.

There's no defamation, just like there was no other key to the storeroom.

You do know that what CNN broadcasts has nothing to do with what happens in this Italian court, right?

I also doubt it will be introduced at his trial.

Very funny. Who is this "they"?

The 'shadowy forces' arrayed against him!

 

[Alt+F4]

What side of the argument are you on now? First your arguing against us, then your arguing the same thing we are saying. I dont even know why I engage in a conversation with you. You hop around like a rabbit never defending the same argument longer than a few posts.

I'm saying that Migini's actions are nothing new, Italy isn't a leading offender when it comes to bad defemation suits and that Amanda Knox and fanboy Frank Sfarzo aren't being singled out.

 

[Alt+F4]

The 'shadowy forces' arrayed against him!

I doubt Italy could come up with the effort to amass "shadowy forces". I'm constantly amazed how slowly justice moves in Italy. Since it's my understanding that not much gets done in Italy in August I think we're looking towards a September date for the conclusion of the appeal. Nine months for an appeal! I think AK and RS had about 20-25 points each in their appeals. Except for the DNA evidence the rest of that stuff could have been banged out in a month.

 

[LondonJohn]

Sorry no. When the Soviet authorities were displeased with someone's activities they hit them with a lot more than a criminal defemation suit. Frank just doesn't understand the history of the former Soviet Union and what it means to be an actual dissident.

Italy isn't even in the lead when it comes to slapping people with defemation suits. You can see which countries are here:

http://www.article19.org/advocacy/defamationmap/map/?dataSet=imprisonment

That article19 site (and operation) is amateurish and very poorly researched. They don't even seem to realise that it's pointless and misleading to compare countries on an absolute level of statistics (e.g. total number of people imprisoned for criminal libel in a given year for each country). The only statistic that would make any sense for comparative purposes is the number of people per 100,000 population (or per 1 million polulation, or whatever) - otherwise comparing a country like Russia with a country like Vatican City is worthless.

The fact that this organisation can't even figure out such a simple method for enabling proper comparison between countries, coupled with the amount of non-data ("no known cases") leads me to believe that its data and results are untrustworthy.