Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Personally, I would like to see it, too, Alt+4. Not only to be sure that the reports are true, but also because I am extremely curious about what Mignini has construed as illegal about Perugia-Shock.

Frank says there has been a van with obscured windows sitting outside his apartment for the last several days. If true, the extent of the surveillance may be a factor in why he isn't trying to resurrect his blog or haggle with Google. He has talked to a number of reporters on the phone, though. He could take a picture of the van and send it to us, but then maybe the police would break down his door and take him to jail.

I appreciate high standards of proof. I want to see the videotapes of the interrogations of Raffaele and Amanda before I believe any of the reports by the police or prosecutor about what happened the night the defendants were arrested. I also want to see the complete documentation of the procedures used when the knife and bra clasp were tested in the lab.


Well said! Of course we'd all like to see the actual court order. But for the moment I'm more than happy to accept the attributed words of Sfarzo regarding this matter, and the detail in the CPJ letter. The alternative, after all, is that both Sfarzo and the CPJ have told bare-faced lies - and I don't see the motivation of either party to do so.

If Frank's site had been taken down for some other reason (e.g. he'd just decided on a whim to take it down unilaterally, or if it was related to some other criminal matter), then my view is that it would have been strongly in Frank's opinion to either make no comment whatsoever about it, or to make a "non-denial denial" (e.g. "I can confirm that it's been taken down, but my lawyers have instructed me not to comment further at the moment"). Peter Quennell could give him some lessons in this latter regard :D
 
Link doesn't work for me. I still get the same message:

"Sorry, the blog at perugia-shock.blogspot.com has been removed. This address is not available for new blogs."


Weird. It was back up as Mary said, but seems to have gone down again in the past few minutes.
 
I wonder if they realize that maybe its because Doug Preston is a real person and Kermit...well errr is a felt frog?

No, Kermit was one of the NBA's toughest "enforcers" for many years and also has the dubious distinction of being the only player in league history to nearly kill another player on the court.

You know, the name was in use for quite a while before Jim Henson.
 
This business about Google pulling a blog because some Italian judge didn't like the content ought to have it's own thread.

I think we should have a thread on the CT forum discussing the possibilty that this entire bizarre circus has been an experiment in the use of mass-media (including the web) as a tool for social engineering and even psychological warfare.

Consider; to get enough people in the former West ra-ra-ing for a war with (read - invasion of) another country, a "Hitler of the Month" must be conjured into being.

If they can turn Amanda Knox in to a crazed, sexually deviant, drug-addled murderer in so many peoples' minds ........
 
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deluded fools and/or parasites

No, Kermit was one of the NBA's toughest "enforcers" for many years and also has the dubious distinction of being the only player in league history to nearly kill another player on the court.

You know, the name was in use for quite a while before Jim Henson.

Fuji,

I would like to know your impression about Stefanoni's failure to turn over the files and your impression of Frank's blog being shut down.
 
Personally, I would like to see it, too, Alt+4. Not only to be sure that the reports are true, but also because I am extremely curious about what Mignini has construed as illegal about Perugia-Shock.

Frank says there has been a van with obscured windows sitting outside his apartment for the last several days. If true, the extent of the surveillance may be a factor in why he isn't trying to resurrect his blog or haggle with Google. He has talked to a number of reporters on the phone, though. He could take a picture of the van and send it to us, but then maybe the police would break down his door and take him to jail.

I appreciate high standards of proof. I want to see the videotapes of the interrogations of Raffaele and Amanda before I believe any of the reports by the police or prosecutor about what happened the night the defendants were arrested. I also want to see the complete documentation of the procedures used when the knife and bra clasp were tested in the lab.

I imagine there is a document trail which could be followed up to substantiate exactly what it is that happened to Frank and Perugia Shock. Frank has, at the very least, his email from Google. He can take that further and inquire as to why his blog was shut down and what documentation they have in making their decision to shutter it.

The order was submitted February 23 (it took Google 2 1/2 months to comply?). If Frank doesn't have the hard copy he should be able to, at the very least, view it. I imagine a copy was given to his attorney and the order has to have been filed somewhere.

I would also suspect CPJ has documentation concerning this latest event. They are an advocacy agency for journalists but I wouldn't expect them to issue a journalist alert without proof that what is being claimed actually happened.

I haven't located a Paola Belsino in Florence but have found a Paola Belsito (btw Belsito is an interesting judge). I will keep looking.
 
Perugia Shock will not be silenced. The site is currently being formatted on WordPress. You can view the new blog here: http://www.perugiashock.com

More information on the new blog can be found here: http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/PerugiaShockUpdate.html

The truth is a real live human being is being harassed in an attempt to silence him. I find it very interesting that the Anti-Knox groups that constantly claim to be attacked by those who want to silence them (as we know, they are always playing the victim), are currently praising Mignini and celebrating the censorship of another blog.

When a real attempt to silence someone occurs right before their eyes, the anti-Knox groups mock that person and say good riddance, for the simple fact that they disagree with his message. What a bunch of hypocrites.

Alt+F4, when they come to silence you, there will be no one left to stand up and defend your free speech.
 
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I imagine there is a document trail which could be followed up to substantiate exactly what it is that happened to Frank and Perugia Shock. Frank has, at the very least, his email from Google. He can take that further and inquire as to why his blog was shut down and what documentation they have in making their decision to shutter it.

The order was submitted February 23 (it took Google 2 1/2 months to comply?). If Frank doesn't have the hard copy he should be able to, at the very least, view it. I imagine a copy was given to his attorney and the order has to have been filed somewhere.

I would also suspect CPJ has documentation concerning this latest event. They are an advocacy agency for journalists but I wouldn't expect them to issue a journalist alert without proof that what is being claimed actually happened.

I haven't located a Paola Belsino in Florence but have found a Paola Belsito (btw Belsito is an interesting judge). I will keep looking.


Quite why Frank Sfarzo should find it necessary or desirable to share this sort of correspondence with random internet dweebs such as you or I is a little beyond my comprehension. I imagine he might have shared the correspondence with the CPJ, but again they have absolutely no reason whatsoever to share it with the wider public - indeed it might be thought of as irresponsible (and potentially unlawful) to do so.

I would imagine that if the President of Italy (to whom the CPJ's correspondence is addressed, let's remember - it's not addressed to "Kermit") asks for corroborating evidence, the CPJ (via Sforzo) might be willing to share it with him. The rest of us have absolutely no business demanding to see it, and have no right to see it either. Full stop.
 
Quite why Frank Sfarzo should find it necessary or desirable to share this sort of correspondence with random internet dweebs such as you or I is a little beyond my comprehension. I imagine he might have shared the correspondence with the CPJ, but again they have absolutely no reason whatsoever to share it with the wider public - indeed it might be thought of as irresponsible (and potentially unlawful) to do so.

I would imagine that if the President of Italy (to whom the CPJ's correspondence is addressed, let's remember - it's not addressed to "Kermit") asks for corroborating evidence, the CPJ (via Sforzo) might be willing to share it with him. The rest of us have absolutely no business demanding to see it, and have no right to see it either. Full stop.

I will admit that some journalists have taken a "believe what I write and state" rather than sourcing their writings or statements with documentation, however, that attitude isn't usually successful and is the reason many are skeptical of modern journalism.

Frank has already shared information with the wider public (sans documentation) so if it is potentially unlawful he is already in jeopardy of doing that. Showing documentation would certainly rally to his side even those who disagree with his views on the case.

If reform is needed in Italy for freedom of the press it certainly will not be done in silence.
 
The erstwhile JREF "luminary" stilicho seems to think (mistakenly) that because Perugia Shock has (partially) re-appeared on a different host server, under a new domain name, this is somehow "proof" that the whole incident was stage-managed by Sfarzo himself - i.e. that Sfarzo took the original Perugia Shock down himself (presumably, in stilicho's mind, purely in order to generate publicity and to bolster the CPJ letter), then, after waiting a short time to let public interest grow, put the site up live again elsewhere.

It's a shame that stilicho doesn't seem to understand how court processes actually work. According to Sfarzo and the CPJ, the Florence court order demanding that the site was taken down was delivered to Google - the owner of the blogger site where Perugia Shock was hosted. There may or may not have been a simultaneous order delivered to Sfarzo warning him not to repost any of the potentially-defamatory content elsewhere on the web.

Google seemingly complied with the court order. Presumably, though, either Sfarzo or someone else had a back-up of the Perugia Shock content, and Sfarzo (or someone else) chose to repost that content under a new domain name on a new host server. Now, the legal situation is therefore currently as follows:

1) Google is in the clear - it has complied with the Florence court order and removed the potentially-defamatory content.

2) If it is Frank who reposted the content on another server, then:

a) If he had an injunction served on him at the same time as the one served to Google, he is in breach of that injunction and immediate action can be taken against him; or

b) If he was not subject to a personal injunction (i.. if Google was the only party served with the court order), then Mignini will have to go back to court to either get a personal injunction against Frank reposting this content, or an order to force the new host to take down the content.

3) If a third party had a copy of Perugia Shock and has reposted it on the new site, then (as in 2b above) Mignini will have to go back to court to get an injunction either against that individual or against the new host.

As a wider point, isn't it interesting how pro-guilt commentators are homing in en masse on the whole Sfarzo/CPJ/Perugia Shock issues? None of them seems to talk about the actual case any more (you remember, the criminal convictions of Knox and Sollecito for the murder of Meredith Kercher) and the ongoing appeal. An analytical mind might be able to hazard a guess as to why that shift in emphasis might have happened.....
 
I will admit that some journalists have taken a "believe what I write and state" rather than sourcing their writings or statements with documentation, however, that attitude isn't usually successful and is the reason many are skeptical of modern journalism.

Frank has already shared information with the wider public (sans documentation) so if it is potentially unlawful he is already in jeopardy of doing that. Showing documentation would certainly rally to his side even those who disagree with his views on the case.

If reform is needed in Italy for freedom of the press it certainly will not be done in silence.


If I were Frank Sfarzo, I wouldn't really care a tuppenny damn about what Mr or Ms Random around the world knows or doesn't know about my current legal situation. I'd care instead about taking necessary steps to safeguard my liberty and ability to engage in free speech. The CPJ clearly has the potential to help Frank in this regard, by publicising his situation to powerful people within Italy. You or I, on the other hand, cannot help Frank one iota, whether we want to or not.

I find it both arrogant and ignorant that people are 1) demanding that the corroborating information be shown to the general public; 2) claiming that we - the public - have some sort of "right" to see all this information; and 3) concluding that if it's not shown, this implies (or even demonstrates) that Sfarzo and/or the CPJ are liars.

This is a matter entirely between Sfarzo and the Italian government. Sfarzo has seemingly chosen to ask the CPJ for assistance, and the CPJ has seemingly agreed to take up his cause. You and I have absolutely nothing to do with it, and nor do we have the right to know the details.
 
If I were Frank Sfarzo, I wouldn't really care a tuppenny damn about what Mr or Ms Random around the world knows or doesn't know about my current legal situation. I'd care instead about taking necessary steps to safeguard my liberty and ability to engage in free speech. The CPJ clearly has the potential to help Frank in this regard, by publicising his situation to powerful people within Italy. You or I, on the other hand, cannot help Frank one iota, whether we want to or not.

But I think he does care or else he wouldn't have contacted media in the States. As to whom can or cannot help Frank it is amazing what the average person can do to help affect change and aid those in need.

I find it both arrogant and ignorant that people are 1) demanding that the corroborating information be shown to the general public; 2) claiming that we - the public - have some sort of "right" to see all this information; and 3) concluding that if it's not shown, this implies (or even demonstrates) that Sfarzo and/or the CPJ are liars.

I don't find it both arrogant and ignorant. Frank has brought this to the public. Many on both sides of the Kercher case are asking why and how and wanting to see documentation. That is only normal if one is to offer support. Not offering documentation doesn't hold that Frank or the CPJ are liars but it would certainly substantiate the accusations made. And I can't believe the CPJ would advocate the suppression of information.

This is a matter entirely between Sfarzo and the Italian government. Sfarzo has seemingly chosen to ask the CPJ for assistance, and the CPJ has seemingly agreed to take up his cause. You and I have absolutely nothing to do with it, and nor do we have the right to know the details.

But Frank didn't leave it with the Italian government and the CPJ - the cause has now been taken up in many places. Do you really think the CPJ would be for the silencing of the media concerning what is taking place with Frank?
 
But I think he does care or else he wouldn't have contacted media in the States. As to whom can or cannot help Frank it is amazing what the average person can do to help affect change and aid those in need.


What makes you think he contacted them, rather than vice versa?


I don't find it both arrogant and ignorant. Frank has brought this to the public. Many on both sides of the Kercher case are asking why and how and wanting to see documentation. That is only normal if one is to offer support. Not offering documentation doesn't hold that Frank or the CPJ are liars but it would certainly substantiate the accusations made. And I can't believe the CPJ would advocate the suppression of information.


I don't think Frank has brought this to the public. Frank Sfarzo has written a blog over the last few years about the Kercher case, which has been critical of Mignini and the Perugia police. He hasn't talked at much length about his own personal dealings with Mignini or the Perugia police, other than when they were directly related to the Kercher case investigation itself. I get the objective impression that he has in fact sought to refrain from commenting on his personal situation, except for when directly pressed on it.

Both Frank Sfarzo and the CPJ have offered explanations as to why and how Perugia Shock was taken offline the other day. They had no need to explain it to the wider public, but they did so anyway, in answer to obvious questions about what had happened to the blog. They have no need or obligation to show all the supporting documentation. They are either telling the truth or they are liars, and if they are subsequently shown to be liars, it won't do either party's reputation any good at all, will it? Do you ask to see someone's passport or driving licence when they first tell you their name, or do you accept they are telling you the truth unless you see explicit evidence to the contrary?


But Frank didn't leave it with the Italian government and the CPJ - the cause has now been taken up in many places. Do you really think the CPJ would be for the silencing of the media concerning what is taking place with Frank?

Who's talked about "silencing of the media"? It's all pretty simple:

1) Perugia Shock went down

2) People asked questions why - particularly in light of the recent CPJ letter - the site suddenly went down without any warning

3) Presumably both the CPJ and media outlets contacted Sfarzo and asked him why the blog was down

4) Sfarzo told them why it was down. He may also have supplied the corroborating evidence to the CPJ and/or some of the media

5) The media and the CPJ reported why Perugia Shock was taken down

6) To suggest that both the CPJ and the media are wrong about the reason why Perugia Shock was taken down is to accept that either the media/CPJ are lying themselves, or that the media/CPJ have completely failed to check the veracity of the story

7) I don't believe that either of these above scenarios makes any sense - especially when one realises that to make false allegations that Mignini obtained a court order to force Google to take down Perugia Shock would in itself probably be defamatory against Mignini

8) It's therefore rational and fair to suppose that the CPJ, media and Sfarzo himself are all telling the truth when they say that Perugia Shock was taken offline in response to a court order obtained by Mignini in Florence, and issued against Google

9) And it's rational and fair to continue to believe that, unless and until contrary evidence comes to light.
 
I will admit that some journalists have taken a "believe what I write and state" rather than sourcing their writings or statements with documentation, however, that attitude isn't usually successful and is the reason many are skeptical of modern journalism.

Frank has already shared information with the wider public (sans documentation) so if it is potentially unlawful he is already in jeopardy of doing that. Showing documentation would certainly rally to his side even those who disagree with his views on the case.

If reform is needed in Italy for freedom of the press it certainly will not be done in silence.

You know what? Showing documentation would please about 10 people who post on message boards. No one else is denying this is doubting it.

Edit: Italian news is reporting on it now.
 
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