General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[bigjelmapro]

Name calling didn't work the first time, not surprisingly, it won't work this time.

Still playing the victim card without much success I see...

 

[applecorped]

"Accordingly, and with the will of God, our attacks will continue against you as long as your support for Israel continues," - OBL

http://news.xin.msn.com/en/regional/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4827699

 

[a_unique_person]

Still playing the victim card without much success I see...

No success needed. Had any responses yet?

 

[Mycroft]

I know you don't think its an Issue what Skeptics opinion is....But how about we address it before exploring other things eh?

I think it's disingenuous to pretend that the capabilities of the Palestinians will always remain as they are now when the discussion is about removing the very systems in place to keep them that way. Hamas has done a great job of taking whatever resources they have and using them to attack Israel, there is every reason to think they will continue to use every resource they can to increase the level of violence at every opportunity. They're like a collective Captain Ahab ignoring whatever ruinous injury inflicted to themselves or their people, saying "From hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee. Ye damned Isra-whale."

 

[The Fool]

I think it's disingenuous to pretend that the capabilities of the Palestinians will always remain as they are now when the discussion is about removing the very systems in place to keep them that way. Hamas has done a great job of taking whatever resources they have and using them to attack Israel, there is every reason to think they will continue to use every resource they can to increase the level of violence at every opportunity. They're like a collective Captain Ahab ignoring whatever ruinous injury inflicted to themselves or their people, saying "From hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee. Ye damned Isra-whale."

Yes...I understand all that. And I am not pretending that their capabilities will remain the same.... So taking into account the likely growth of Palestinian military might. I still want to know what Skeptic thinks are the odds that The palestinian population would ever be able to "wipe out" Israel.

To me....the proposition that a palestinian state is off the table because they may one day wipe out Israel is akin to saying that a palestinian state is off the table because one day pigs may fly.....

 

[Skeptic]

I wonder if this logic applies elsewhere.

How about releasing all mass murdering psychopaths who have passed the age of 40, under the idea that sure, they want to mass murder people, but they aren't as capable of them as they were in their 20s?

We need to "advance the legality process", after all, and what better way to do so than release people from prison?

I suppose that, if they solemnly swear to only try and murder Jews from now on, some folks here would be for it.

 

[The Fool]

I wonder if this logic applies elsewhere.

How about releasing all mass murdering psychopaths who have passed the age of 40, under the idea that sure, they want to mass murder people, but they aren't as capable of them as they were in their 20s?

We need to "advance the legality process", after all, and what better way to do so than release people from prison?

I suppose that, if they solemnly swear to only try and murder Jews from now on, some folks here would be for it.

Can I assume the question is too hard??

What chance do you believe palestinians have....now or in the future...of wiping out Israel.

simple question, not interested in your opinions on other topics at the moment. If you are going to say no palestinian state....ever....based on the probability of this event I think its only fair that you tell us what you think the probability actually is...

I stump for zero....but you .....aparently, are not capable of answering a simple direct question.

 

[Cobalt]

Can I assume the question is too hard??

Safer that you assume your question is stupid.

What chance do you believe palestinians have....now or in the future...of wiping out Israel.

5% now, future is indeterminable.

Now let me ask you a question. Where is the line that you, personally, would agree that it shouldn't happen because the risk was too high?

Hypothetical scenarios are fun!

simple question,

Simple, AND stupid!

not interested in your opinions on other topics at the moment.

That's nice.

If you are going to say no palestinian state....ever....based on the probability of this event I think its only fair that you tell us what you think the probability actually is...
I stump for zero....but you .....aparently, are not capable of answering a simple direct question.

I couldn't conceivably care less what you think is fair or not. Your question is dumb.

Skeptic's analogy is appropriate.

No comment on that though?

 

[The Fool]

5% now, future is indeterminable.

Thank you, I think you are being a bit hard on the IDF but at least you can answer the question.

Now let me ask you a question. Where is the line that you, personally, would agree that it shouldn't happen because the risk was too high?

.001% but someone would probably have to give me some detail on what they think Palestinians could do to give themselves any chance.....Probably asking Allah for an airforce would be the first thing needed.

Hypothetical scenarios are fun!

I don't think conflict between Palestinians and Israelis is hypothetical...

Simple, AND stupid! That's nice.

I couldn't conceivably care less what you think is fair or not. Your question is dumb.

Skeptic's analogy is appropriate.

No comment on that though?

well I can make the comment that you have stated your opinions....thats a good thing.

 

[a_unique_person]

I wonder if this logic applies elsewhere.

How about releasing all mass murdering psychopaths who have passed the age of 40, under the idea that sure, they want to mass murder people, but they aren't as capable of them as they were in their 20s?

We need to "advance the legality process", after all, and what better way to do so than release people from prison?

I suppose that, if they solemnly swear to only try and murder Jews from now on, some folks here would be for it.

Don't be shy, name names.

 

[WildCat]

What chance do you believe palestinians have....now or in the future...of wiping out Israel.

Why do you think that's a relevant question? You think Israel should not be concerned unless and until the Palestinaisn actually achieve military superiority over them? That they should just sit back and accept daily bombardment because, hey, they can't actually invade yet?

You can't possibly be that thick.

 

[applecorped]

as a brick

 

[The Fool]

Why do you think that's a relevant question? You think Israel should not be concerned unless and until the Palestinaisn actually achieve military superiority over them? That they should just sit back and accept daily bombardment because, hey, they can't actually invade yet?

You can't possibly be that thick.

Its a relevant question because "skeptic" sites the ability of Palestinians to "wipe out" Israel as a reason to permanently reject a palestinian state.


yet...he can't or won't say what he thinks is the actual probability of that ever happening. No doubt he will let it slide (as you are already doing) to just any level of sustained violence....no matter how small.

I have not ever suggested that Israel has to sit back and accept anything....you are, once again, making stuff up and implying it is my argument.

are we all that unwilling to grudgingly accept that this ragtag of stateless arabs is never in their wildest dreams going to "wipe out" Israel. You will all need to get another scary story to tell the Children to get them to eat their vegetables..

 

[Matt Giwer]

This is why I like Matt Giwer. He makes arguments like this and they're virtually the same as the arguments that proclaim the Mavi Mamara raid to be "piracy", Gaza to be "occupied" or Israeli disengagement to be "apartheid". Find a few superficial similarities, ignore all the differences, and then just repeat the proclamation endlessly. The only real difference is Matt here doesn't have international organizations such as "freegaza.org" or the ISM to back him up.

Part of me wonders if it isn't a brilliantly done parody, but I know it's some unnamed corollary of "Poe's Law".

You may consider them to be superficial similarities but I have yet to read a substantive difference. In fact the only disagreement so far has been, "It is not a dictatorship. It is a criminal occupation." Looks like both to me.

 

[The Fool]

You may consider them to be superficial similarities but I have yet to read a substantive difference. In fact the only disagreement so far has been, "It is not a dictatorship. It is a criminal occupation." Looks like both to me.

yes...if you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

 

[Matt Giwer]

rubbish, the route of the wall (for example) has been changed due to High court orders. The amount of facts needing to be ignored to prop up your use of the term "dictatorship" grows by the hour.

I do have a lot of issues with things Israel does but I can't see how having a default belief is helpfull... Nor is using the term "dictator" fast and loose as a trolling chant.

IF wishes were horses izziehuggers might know something about Israel.

That is an article on Belin. There have been weekly demonstrations there for years. They continue to this day because the route has NOT been changed. Three people have been murdered there by tear gas "accidents." The wall has not been moved.

 

[mortimer]

yes...if you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Or if you only have a gas chamber, every problem looks like Zyklon-B. Oh wait, never mind. He doesn't believe that actually happened.

 

[Mycroft]

Yes...I understand all that. And I am not pretending that their capabilities will remain the same.... So taking into account the likely growth of Palestinian military might. I still want to know what Skeptic thinks are the odds that The palestinian population would ever be able to "wipe out" Israel.

I think that since none of us can predict the future, asking for odds is foolish. No pun intended.

To me....the proposition that a palestinian state is off the table because they may one day wipe out Israel is akin to saying that a palestinian state is off the table because one day pigs may fly.....

Who says a Palestinian state is off the table? That's been the focus of discussion for decades. It's clearly on the table, the only questions are when, what and how.

My opinion remains that it's reasonable for Israel to want assurances that a Palestinian state won't simply become a platform to launch more attacks against Israel. When we discuss that, you seem to have apoplectic fits, apparently feeling that even a gesture so simple and easy as re-writing their charter to eliminate the genocidal bits is too much to ask of them. I'm going to guess you would have similar objections to any other suggestions as well.

 

[The Fool]

I think that since none of us can predict the future, asking for odds is foolish. No pun intended.

Just trying to quantify peoples generalizations. But if you want to avoid the question using that excuse its ok by me.....you seem to have no problem predicting the future in other areas...

Who says a Palestinian state is off the table?

skeptic....on the grounds that now or sometime in the future If palestinians get a state they will wipe out Israel....remember?

My opinion remains that it's reasonable for Israel to want assurances that a Palestinian state won't simply become a platform to launch more attacks against Israel. When we discuss that, you seem to have apoplectic fits, apparently feeling that even a gesture so simple and easy as re-writing their charter to eliminate the genocidal bits is too much to ask of them. I'm going to guess you would have similar objections to any other suggestions as well.

and round and round and round we go.....assurances from who?
remember it was at this point last time around that you took your bat and ball and went home, proclaiming I was on ignore.

you are all for a palestinian state....but...... on conditions you seem reluctant to describe.
I put it to you that you would reject any and all assurances given by any and all palestinians in any form.... You need to expand on this "assurances" thing before we can move on to your next "but" when it comes to a palestinian state.

 

[Mycroft]

You may consider them to be superficial similarities but I have yet to read a substantive difference. In fact the only disagreement so far has been, "It is not a dictatorship. It is a criminal occupation." Looks like both to me.

So...just to reiterate:

You agree the Mavi Mamara raid was "piracy".

You agree Gaza is still "occupied".

You agree that Israeli disengagement can correctly be termed "apartheid".

Your only real disagreement with (some) of the anti-Israel left here is you go an extra step in calling the West Bank a "military dictatorship".

Does that sound about right to you? If so, then I think people do you a disservice in portraying you as an extremist. I think your views are more mainstream than you get credit for.