Ed Rob Menard's FOTL Claims

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Menard once again unwittingly proves that his withdrawal of consent theory is totally unworkable.
http://forum.davidicke.com/showpost.php?p=1059888675&postcount=67
In the absence of agreement or contracts to the contrary, if we are all equal and no one has a God given right to govern their fellow man without consent, regardless of their numbers, then all acts that break the law will have at their core actions which did harm another, damaged their property, or relied on mischievous contracts, or dishonour.
So no man may govern another without his consent, so by his very argument his freeman valley will not be able to maintain any order due to the fact that the individual is master rather than the majority.
 
To the music of George Formby's Chinese Laundry song:

Oh, Mr Woo
What shall I do?
I've got those Freeman Courtroom Blues

Well, if we get to change words, then, to the tune of Song of the Marines

We'll be free on the land, let's go men.
It's our clear intent to withdraw our consent again.
It's something we do now and then:
At an officer vent to avoid a month's rent or ten.

Or some other debt
That's making us sweat.

You know we're certain to fail
We may land in jail

Where we can stay rent-free for years and then:

We'll withdraw our consent
We'll withdraw our consent
We''ll withdraw our consent again!



I added the youtube link because though I knew the tune, I didn't know its name.
 
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Well, if we get to change words, then, to the tune of Song of the Marines

We'll be free on the land, let's go men.
It's our clear intent to withdraw our consent again.
It's something we do now and then:
At an officer vent to avoid a month's rent or ten.

Or some other debt
That's making us sweat.

You know we're certain to fail
We may land in jail

Where we can stay rent-free for years and then:

We'll withdraw our consent
We'll withdraw our consent
We''ll withdraw our consent again!



I added the youtube link because though I knew the tune, I didn't know its name.

Excellent. My effort is most feeble by comparison!
 
Menard's Challenge

Read Section 15 of the Criminal Code of Canada. It deals with de facto governments, courts and other entities. Then answer my questions, or know that I have proof and you fear it, and all you can do is run form it while claiming it does not exist.

Fear.... amusing.

I have no intention of posting in that cess-pit so await the fun.
One thing of interest though, Section 16 of his Criminal Code of Canada is perhaps more relevant to Menard than section 15 is.

Criminal Code of Canada. Section 16.
 
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Well, let's really look at what he's basing his arguments on:

http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/cc/cc.15.html


15. No person shall be convicted of an offence in respect of an act or omission in obedience to the laws for the time being made and enforced by persons in de facto possession of the sovereign power in and over the place where the act or omission occurs. [R.S., c.C-34, s.15.]


"by persons in de facto possession of the sovereign power"


Well, first off, Menard and all his ilk insist that they are not "persons" as used in this law, so this section cannot apply to them, by their own argument.

Of course, if they are "persons" such that this allows them to be "persons in de facto possession of the sovereign power", then all the other aspects of this law, and by extension, all other laws, applies to them as well. Nice job breaking it, hero.


And then there's the question of what the law considers to be " de facto possession of the sovereign power".

This deals with US law, but it seems a useful summation of the concept, and would probably be considered in any Canadian court case that comes up:

http://opiniojuris.org/2008/06/15/what-is-de-facto-sovereignty/

I see several possible interpretations of de facto sovereignty based on my reading of Boumediene: (1) the territorial model; (2) the occupation zone model; (3) the military base model; (4) the effective control model; (5) the physical custody model; and (6) the exercise of power model.


Notice the complete lack of a "Because I said so!" model. "Occupation" "military base" and "exercise of power" are all explicitly against the Fotler notions, and the others aren't really aligned with them.


Then there's this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty#De_jure_and_de_facto

De jure, or legal, sovereignty is the theoretical right to exercise exclusive control over one's subjects.

De facto, or actual, sovereignty is concerned with whether control in fact exists. It can be approached in two ways:

1. Does the governing power have sufficient strength (police, etc.) to compel its subjects to obey it? (If so, a type of de facto sovereignty called coercive sovereignty exists.)
2. Are the subjects of the governing power in the habit of obeying it?

It is generally held that sovereignty requires not only the legal right to exercise power, but the actual exercise of such power. That is, "No de jure sovereignty without de facto sovereignty." In other words, neither claiming/being proclaimed Sovereign, nor merely exercising the power of a Sovereign is sufficient; sovereignty requires both elements.[citation needed]



So, Menard, go ahead and pull another menard by asserting that you have the legal right to create a Fotler Zone because you have "sufficient strength to compel [your] subjects to obey". I'm sure that will go down great with all your fellow Fotlers.
 
^ Its a very obscure section of the Criminal Code. Here is my hastily put together post from the Icke forum on the subject of s. 15:

Section 15 of the Criminal Code provides as follows:

15. No person shall be convicted of an offence in respect of an act or omission in obedience to the laws for the time being made and enforced by persons in de facto possession of the sovereign power in and over the place where the act or omission occurs.[/QUOTE

It appears to be a very obscure section. The best discussion of it that I could find is a Supreme Court of Canada decision reported as Garland v. Consumers' Gas Co., 2004 SCC 25, [2004] 1 (available here: http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/2004/2004scc25/2004scc25.pdf). I thought that this might provide a useful background for the discussion.

Here is what the lower courts had to say about the defence provided by s. 15 (as summarized by Iaccobucci J. of the SCC):

Ontario Court of Justice
11 Nor, in Winkler J.’s view, did s. 15 of the Criminal Code act as a defence. Section 15 was a provision of very limited application, originally enacted to ensure that persons serving the Monarch de facto could not be tried for treason for remaining faithful to the unsuccessful claimant to the throne. While it could have a more contemporary application, it was limited on its face to actions or omissions occurring pursuant to the authority of a sovereign power. As the OEB was not a sovereign power, it did not apply.

Ontario Court of Appeal
18 Section 15 of the Criminal Code did not provide the respondent with a defence, either. It was of limited application and is largely irrelevant in modern times.

And here are the what I think are the most interesting/relevant passages from Iacobucci J.'s decision:

80 Consumers’ Gas submits that because it was acting pursuant to a disposition of law that was valid at the time — the Board orders — they should be exempt from liability by virtue of the de facto doctrine. This argument cannot succeed. Consumers’ Gas is not a government official acting under colour of authority. While the respondent points to the Board orders as justification for its actions, this does not bring the respondent into the purview of the de facto doctrine because the case law does not support extending the doctrine’s application beyond the acts of government officials. The underlying purpose of the doctrine is to preserve law and order and the authority of the government. These interests are not at stake in the instant litigation. As a result, Consumers’ Gas cannot rely on the de facto doctrine to resist the plaintiff’s claim.



81 Furthermore, the de facto doctrine attaches to government and its officials in order to protect and maintain the rule of law and the authority of government. An extension of the doctrine to a private corporation that is simply regulated by a government authority is not supported by the case law and in my view does not further the underlying purpose of the doctrine. In Reference re Manitoba Language Rights, 1985 CanLII 33 (S.C.C.), [1985] 1 S.C.R. 721, this Court held, at p. 756, that:


There is only one true condition precedent to the application of the doctrine: the de facto officer must occupy his or her office under colour of authority.​

84 This view finds further support in the following passage from the judgment (at p. 755):


That the foundation of the principle is the more fundamental principle of the rule of law is clearly stated by Constantineau in the following passage (at pp. 5-6):

Again, the doctrine is necessary to maintain the supremacy of the law and to preserve peace and order in the community at large, since any other rule would lead to such uncertainty and confusion, as to break up the order and quiet of all civil administration. Indeed, if any individual or body of individuals were permitted, at his or their pleasure, to challenge the authority of and refuse obedience to the government of the state and the numerous functionaries through whom it exercises its various powers, or refuse to recognize municipal bodies and their officers, on the ground of irregular existence or defective titles, insubordination and disorder of the worst kind would be encouraged, which might at any time culminate in anarchy.​

The underlying purpose of the doctrine is to preserve law and order and the authority of the government. These interests are not at stake in the instant litigation. In sum, I find no merit in Consumers’ Gas’s argument that the de facto doctrine shields it from liability and as a result this doctrine should not be a bar to the appellant’s recovery.
 
Menard loves obscure. It makes him think he looks clever and has done real research. Helps him sell his rubbish in which he definitely doesn't offer legal advice.

Over at http://shop.worldfreemansociety.org/ ,where Menard definitely does not sell his rubbish offering legal advice, you can view scans of Black's Law Dictionary, first and second editions... The FOTL-Bible. They don't like later versions of course.

So to quote the obscure from said publication:

Page 964, first edition:
PUBERTY. The age of fourteen in males and twelve in females, when they are held fit for, and capable of contracting, marriage.
 
I think that some of the sane posters over at Icke's are doing a splendid job of continuing to expose Menard for the Con-Artist he really is.

Whilst the FOTL-Poo at Icke's and WFO is running out of steam I do think it still important that these posters continue their efforts. They are, whether knowingly or not, (and imho), helping to protect the weaker members of society from potentially being another "Success Story".

I shall name no names but you know who you are.

A CT is usually something to laugh at.
A CT that involves scamming people out of money is bad.
A CT that involves scamming people out of money and gets them locked up is a despicable piece of donkey poop.
 
Indeed, if any individual or body of individuals were permitted, at his or their pleasure, to challenge the authority of and refuse obedience to the government of the state and the numerous functionaries through whom it exercises its various powers, or refuse to recognize municipal bodies and their officers, on the ground of irregular existence or defective titles, insubordination and disorder of the worst kind would be encouraged, which might at any time culminate in anarchy.



That's just about as complete a smack-down of using this to support Fotlerism as it is possible to conceive of....
 
^ Agreed. I must admit that I enjoy the irony that Mr. Menard's new theory depends on a section of the Criminal Code which only protects government officials and officers, and which has as its sole purpose to make it easier for those government officials to exercise their authority (without fear of prosecution if it turns out they weren't properly sworn in to office or something.) I didn't want to rub it in on the Icke forum though because I thought it might derail the discussion. Hopefully it speaks for itself though.

EDIT: to fix embarrassing spelling mistake.
 
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Rob wrote on Ickes
http://forum.davidicke.com/showpost.php?p=1059889618&postcount=71
If you read that section, (15) and then answer five or six simple questions, I will show you proof i the form of a logical and reasonable argument proving that we have the right and power to disobey the people in the courts and government. Do you wish to invest some time and energy and drop the attitude and intent to discredit me long enough to do read a couple of words and answer a few questions, or not?

Come over here Rob, I will play your little game with you, or are you afraid of me?

Come on Rob, time to prove yourself once and for all.
(I'm still at a loss as to why none of the skeptics over there will take him up on his offer though.)
 
Why are FMOTL forums different?

http://www.the-scream.co.uk/forums/t21123.html
http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/forum1/carpentry-joinery-forum-f5.html
http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/

All other help forums follow the same pattern, people sign up and ask the experts how to do something, experts and other members give them advice on how to do the said task.
People share ideas, they verify that the methods work and discuss other ways of doing it.
People perform said task as per instructions and come back on the forum and thank others.

Now, you join a FMOTL forum and ask for advice and it goes as follows
Can you tell me if ..etc ,etc, etc...
FMOTLer "Do your own research, I'm not here to spoon feed you, the answers are all out there you just need to look for them"

The only reason for this is that they dont have the answers and they know they dont exist.
Any other ideas why?
 
If Menard gave answers then http://shop.worldfreemansociety.org/ ,where he doesn't sell his bulltwizzle or offer legal advice, would be redundant.

If he lived in the real world, rather than his FOTL-Fantasy-World with its pretend police force and toy number plates, he would get slapped.

The only answers needed from this buffoon are:
Rob, most people when they ◊◊◊◊ up and get caught accept that they have done wrong. Why can't you? Wasting ten years of your life trying to redefine rules and laws so that they accommodate your failings is very sad. Selling your buffoonery is even sadder. Why can't you hide your stupidity instead of flaunting it?
 
^ Agreed. I must admit that I enjoy the irony that Mr. Menard's new theory depends on a section of the Criminal Code which only protects government officials and officers, and which has as its sole purpose to make it easier for those government officials to exercise their authority (without fear of prosecution if it turns out they weren't properly sworn in to office or something.) I didn't want to rub it in on the Icke forum though because I thought it might derail the discussion. Hopefully it speaks for itself though.

EDIT: to fix embarrassing spelling mistake.

My opinion is that you should "rub it in" where Menard is concerned. When backed into a corner he runs from threads and never admits his mistakes. But, although Menard, when reading your post, may see the error of his ways, I doubt many (apart from a handful of sceptics over there) will understand the point you are driving at, and my opinion is they should know. Menard should be exposed for the con man he is at every opportunity.
(Good post on Icke's BTW)
 
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I giggled. Just forgot to tell you.

Yet another thing i did not consent to. You Nwo thug you.

I have always thought the fotl crap sounds very Trailer Park Boys Esque. ( fans of the show will get what i am talking about. ) But this just takes the cake.
 
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