Bin Laden Dead Truthers Mourn

[ElMondoHummus]

One cop, semi-automatic or revolver, short range.

Twenty-four Navy SEALS, assault rifles and SMGs with 3 round burst capacity, M249 SAWs with full auto, medium range.


Do you see any difference between these two scenarios?

Oh, don't forget: Multiple opponents placing fire on you in return, possibly from cover, with automatic weapons. And in the middle of a dark night, while you're only wearing night vision equipment.

------

ETA: D'oh! I should read following posts before posting myself.

Dont forget other automatic weapons being fired back behind cover.

My fault, my fault, my fault...

 

[ElMondoHummus]

No phone or internet was purely a security matter. Not only for him but also prevents his henchmen from taking risks and giving him awayHe had runners instead.

Modern technology and comfort such as a £1m mansion and all its mod cons, TV and radio, hot running fresh water, electricity, comfy beds, toilet, toilet paper .............................and that huge satalite dish on the roof. I'd call that modern tech stuff.

Yeah, that I can accept as western technology.

You know, the funny thing is, truthers and other morons keep on about that whole "living in a cave" thing. That dates back to his videos in the aftermath of 9/11, as well as the stories of his maladventures during the Afghan/Soviet war decades before that. What too many of the ignoranti are ignoring is the fact that the caves the Arab fighters were using were in fact brought up to living standards by Bin Laden himself. He's the one who, though his construction company contacts, got the equipment and funding to outfit those caves to some level above and beyond paleolithic standards. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if I recall correctly, he even got lights and rudimentary plumbing going in them.

The fact that he was educated enough to have led the upgrade of simple caves in Afghanistan to livable pretty much demonstrates the ignornace of the conspiracy pedddler's meme suggesting that Al Qaeda is made up of backwards, unsophisticated people. As has been pointed out in the past, those backwards, unsophisticated folks tend to be poor and too busy with basic survival. It's the comfortable class who can go to college - like Atta - who gets sucked into radical islamicism. The book Perfect Soldiers is just one of many sources detailing that. Some of the Bin Laden biographies have laid out the same.

Anyway, pardon the digressive rant. You gave me the perfect hook to go on a tangent about that. Bin Laden and his ilk are in fact quite modern in many things. Social sensibilities harkening to Dark Ages religious literalism may not be one of them, but it's actually one of the only ones; they're quite modern, and actually well educated. Something truthers and other conspiracy addicts seem not to want to acknowledge.

 

[angrysoba]

Do you really believe anyone can hide from American technology for ten years?

Why not?

Radovan Karadjic was on the run for more than ten years and lived in Belgrade the whole time.

Ratko Mladic is still on the loose and often suspected of still living in and around Belgrade.

It's been reported that Mullah Omar has been into Quetta for heart surgery. It may or may not be true but Truthers don't seem to have any opinion on him at all.

Jalaluddin Haqqani, a Taliban-esque warlord has been fighting the US for ten years. How has he evaded US technology for ten years? Do Truthers care?

Gulbuddin Hekmatyar has been at war with the US for the same amount of time. Where is he? Do Truthers care?

Ayman al-Zawahiri has been on the run as long as Osama bin Laden. Do Truthers have any theories about him?

 

[Brainster]

No phone or internet was purely a security matter. Not only for him but also prevents his henchmen from taking risks and giving him awayHe had runners instead.

Modern technology and comfort such as a £1m mansion and all its mod cons, TV and radio, hot running fresh water, electricity, comfy beds, toilet, toilet paper .............................and that huge satalite dish on the roof. I'd call that modern tech stuff.

Lawrence Wright in the Looming Tower pointed out that Osama seemed to relish austere living conditions despite his wealth, so my guess is that the comforts weren't all that lavish.

 

[cantonear1968]

Wajid Hasan states that UBL only moved into the compound two hours earlier than the attack and that he was lured there by the CIA. Sounds about right to me. Probably a safe house that he used routinely and certain political and military heirarchy of Pakistan knew it. The CIA tracked it and set him up.

Musharef hid UBL away for so long and now ousted from power the west is dealing with a different political leader in Pakistan.

Very much likely that political pressure has intensified towards Pakistan since confirmation of UBL’s movements and potential location in August 2010. Given that the Taliban and AQ are routinely threatening to kill Pakistan political leaders and military personel it is even more likely that not only was Pakistan fully aware of this operation but highly likely that the hierarchy of the local military academy and police forces were aware of such an operation but at a very late stage. Perhaps being ordered to stay away within only minutes, hence no Pakistani involvement whatsoever in the fire fight. Not even as a surprise offensive!

Under the command and control of the CIA, Navy Seals in a helicopter flying so far inland undetected over a heavily patrolled military zone is very possible but done with the ok of Pakistan. It is the military after all. Supersecretanall.

It must grate to the bogeyman brigade that the world’s most wanted man was found living it up in a £1m mansion surrounded by western technology and comfort whilst sending his brainwashed herd to do his dirty work. Confirmation to the those who think he was a cave dweller. lol.

Pres Obama ordered him killed knowing where he was and the FBI now have him labelled as ‘deceased’. The bogeyman is dead and currently being eaten by the fishes. No virgins for him.

Also no sign of any truther banners at GZ today.

Is that the honest FBI agents who wouldn't list him as "Wanted" on their website or the evil, dishonest FBI agents who never tested for superduper hushaboom explosives at GZ?

 

[The Lone Bolt]

What about Charlie Sheen?

[qimg]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a154/perdalis/Navy-SEALs.jpg[/qimg]

Looks like Charlie may be abandoning the cause:

Charlie Sheen: "Dead or Alive. WE PREFER DEAD! Well done SEAL team! AMERICA: #WINNING that's how we roll…. c."

http://perezhilton.com/page/3/

 

[Jackanory]

Why not?

Radovan Karadjic was on the run for more than ten years and lived in Belgrade the whole time.

Ratko Mladic is still on the loose and often suspected of still living in and around Belgrade.

It's been reported that Mullah Omar has been into Quetta for heart surgery. It may or may not be true but Truthers don't seem to have any opinion on him at all.

Jalaluddin Haqqani, a Taliban-esque warlord has been fighting the US for ten years. How has he evaded US technology for ten years? Do Truthers care?

Gulbuddin Hekmatyar has been at war with the US for the same amount of time. Where is he? Do Truthers care?

Ayman al-Zawahiri has been on the run as long as Osama bin Laden. Do Truthers have any theories about him?

All very valid points. I could add quite a few names to the mix of those wanted or those known to be active in terrorism but evade 'US & UK technology' in their capture. It must be noted that the 'technology' used in searching, tracking and finding these individuals is not necessarily as techy as people would think. Long laborious days, hours, weeks, months and years of footslog and paper check are involved. Feet on the ground, topography, satellite, drone, fixed camera, word of mouth, sneaky beaky stuff.

These people hide. Truthers clearly never played hide and seek and failed to find a friend in a neighbours shed or up a tree. lol. Try finding someone who isn’t playing a neighbourhood game and is hiding in the vastness of terrain such as Pakistan and Afghanistan. Clearly Clayton has never been out of his home town and has no reference to reality of the rest of the world.

Another response to not capturing these known terrorist is simply to leave them alone whilst they remain inactive but simply follow them to gather intelligence that leads us to the big boys and woka woka, flashbang, double tap to the head and a sea burial.......all within a few hours. Take out those being followed too. Job done. A perfect example of just such a thing has just been witnessed. Wiki leaks almost screwed it up by telling the ill informed of the wests dislike and mistrust of the ISI. Something we knew already but the hype makes people jittery. ISI is now under scrutiny infront of the worlds media but they could have impeded todays mission.

 

[Jackanory]

Lawrence Wright in the Looming Tower pointed out that Osama seemed to relish austere living conditions despite his wealth, so my guess is that the comforts weren't all that lavish.

In comparison to what? UBL only liked 'austere living' because he was forced to live that way...............or so we thought hey. lol.

His compound was built 5 years ago and looked quite 'lavish' to me. Certainly beats a million year old cave.

 

[Jackanory]

Is that the honest FBI agents who wouldn't list him as "Wanted" on their website or the evil, dishonest FBI agents who never tested for superduper hushaboom explosives at GZ?

Depends on which FBI website the woo directs you to. The one I have seen clearly had him 'Wanted' and now has him 'Deceased'. Al Jazeera can bail you out with a new video though. lol. But it will be fake because he is too fat or right handed. lol. or dead! lol. Oh that illusive bogeyman deflects the birth certificate issue. lol. woooooooooooo

 

[NoahFence]

Why not?

Radovan Karadjic was on the run for more than ten years and lived in Belgrade the whole time.

Ratko Mladic is still on the loose and often suspected of still living in and around Belgrade.

It's been reported that Mullah Omar has been into Quetta for heart surgery. It may or may not be true but Truthers don't seem to have any opinion on him at all.

Jalaluddin Haqqani, a Taliban-esque warlord has been fighting the US for ten years. How has he evaded US technology for ten years? Do Truthers care?

Gulbuddin Hekmatyar has been at war with the US for the same amount of time. Where is he? Do Truthers care?

Ayman al-Zawahiri has been on the run as long as Osama bin Laden. Do Truthers have any theories about him?

....Whitey Bulger....

 

[Howie Felterbush]

Some members of the press will probably hound the military for the name of the person or persons who pulled the trigger. Not realizing what a bad idea it would be for them to release it.

No kidding.

The poor guy would be dead from alcohol poisoning in less than twenty four hours.

 

[TruthMakesPeace]

Bin Laden mansion was a few blocks from Pakistan Military Academy

>For sharp shooters it is not luck.

Negative. Lucky shots are not what they are "trained" to do.

If you read my sentence above it says NOT luck. Read much?

Yeah, that's our old pal cicorp, who aparently thought we wouldn't notice the name change.

The name change is in my Profile, plus there is an announcement in the Cicorp Pentagon thread about it. Notice much? "aparently"? Spell much?

Why would critical thinkers trust a story where the evidence was so quickly destroyed?

Bin Laden's mansion was a few blocks from the Pakistan Military Academy.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...d&ll=34.184435,73.247223&spn=0.01065,0.019698

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Looks like Charlie may be abandoning the cause:



http://perezhilton.com/page/3/

I will never understand that guy... he doesn't make up his mind....

 

[TheRedWorm]

Heh; "For sharp shooters, it is not luck"

Under fire?

What would you know about such things?

 

[000063]

If you read my sentence above it says NOT luck. Read much?

Well, he said so, so it must be true. Pack it in, everyone.

Why would critical thinkers trust a story where the evidence was quickly hidden?

Because it was an investigation into a National Security matter, and a portion of the evidence was later released to the public.

Incidentally, some of the security cams around the Pentagon weren't looked at until months later. Not exactly sharp cookies, these conspirators.

 

[Sunstealer]

Who would use a sniper rifle when going room to room in a house? Oh yeah, teenagers playing cod/moh.

TruthMakesPeace - What do you think they should have done - lured him outside with a piece of cheese?

 

[triforcharity]

>For sharp shooters it is not luck.

Correct. But the ones that you have pointed to, were luck.

Plus, we didn't have the leisure to set up that kind of operation. The one used was most likely simmilar to the one I posted earlier.

The name change is in my Profile, plus there is an announcement in the Cicorp Pentagon thread about it. Notice much? "aparently"? Spell much?

Yeah, cause we all read everything that you post.

I happened to read it, others obviously didn't. Hence, they fact that two seperate people didn't notice. One had you on ignore, so he would not have seen your "notice".

PS. Don't be a dick. Typos and misspellings happen.

Why would critical thinkers trust a story where the evidence was so quickly destroyed?

I am sure you haven't seen the very first thing about evidence.

Bin Laden's mansion was a few blocks from the Pakistan Military Academy.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...d&ll=34.184435,73.247223&spn=0.01065,0.019698

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_193154dbf0e79e81e1.jpg[/qimg]

Sorry, that is in fact the incorrect compound.

This is the correct one.

34.169357, 73.242534

 

[ElMondoHummus]

None of that matters! For Cicorp/TMP, his statement was that they were trained to aim for and hit the guns. The important part of my response was the proof that his claim was entirely erroneous, that such professionals in the military or law enforcement agencies in fact are not trained in any such fashion, and are instead trained to aim for center mass.

This is why I stuck him on ignore. He completely flies by the substantive part of my post in order to make hay out of a single, incidental word. Luck, circumstance, whatever, the point is that shooting guns out of people's hands is actually contrary to training. And I established that with those links, one of which was to a repost of an army manual.

It's deceptive and dishonest of him to ignore the substance of that post. On his major, central point - army and police training - he has been proven wrong. My casual use of the word "lucky" is incidental to that. Once again, a repeat of that post with the important parts highlighted and emphasized:

For sharp shooters it is not luck. It what they train to be able to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff4XuPtAOUk

http://www.flicklife.com/d3ebaabb04d6b5d09942/Sniper_shoots_gun_out_of_guys_hand.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv69hX4jlWQ

Why weren't they ordered to take him alive, and bring him to justice (a trial)?

He was surrounded, and will eventually run out of ammo, or need a kidney dialysis.

Negative. Lucky shots are not what they are "trained" to do. Police officers as well as soldiers are trained to shoot center mass.

• http://www.ehow.com/about_6304650_army-marksmenship-training.html
• http://www.scribd.com/doc/39348326/Quick-Fire-Reflexive-Shooting
• http://gothamist.com/2010/10/22/why_cant_cops_shoot_to_wound.php
• http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/3468112-Shooting-center-mass-Shooting-to-kill-or-to-stop/

People who pay even the least bit of attention to marksmanship training understand that the whole notion of shooting guns out of people's hands is an accident of luck and circumstance, and it's not something you deliberately train to do. Don't mistake exceptions for the rule; they most certainly do not train for that, nor are they taught to do that. What few examples exist are the product of unusual circumstances plus a police officer's or soldier's decision to deviate from training to take a higher risk course of action to suit the circumstance. It is not something you plan deliberately to do.

I hope our truther is clear now on how to address what is truly substantive. Point made, end of issue.

 

[Baylor]

This is hella funny.

When Bin Laden hit the deck after getting shot, he did it in freefall. Femr2 has a graph.

 

[TruthMakesPeace]

ElMondoHummus versus his Straw Man

None of that matters! For Cicorp/TMP, his statement was that

Nice try on a straw man argument. Do you always debate against arguments you make up?

I never said that shooting a gun out of someone's hand was always the objective of a sharp shooter. I said that that a good sharp shooter could shoot the gun from someone's hand, and provided examples.

Given the importance of the intel Bin Laden had, and his relatively weak threat to the JSOC sharp shooters (he was a sick man needing a cane and kidney dialysis machine who was a poor shot), and that he was completely surrounded, they could have, and should have taken him alive.

If for no other reason, they could get the $25 million reward. More importantly, it would show the world that "bringing him to justice" means bringing him to justice in a court of law, not a lynching.