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The oldest biblical character who probably existed


You change homeland to stopover.

Stopover.

You mean they had maps and knew where they were headed? Did the ancient astronauts give them the maps? How do you know they immediately moved on? I presume you were not there.

Sorry but homeland is one hell of a lot better a fit than stopover as stopover implies a destination and it was impossible to have a destination.

Homeland in the zionist sense, which is the nonsense one used when it comes to bibleland, encompasses people whose ancestors left their voluntarily over 2000 years ago and people who converted to the religion of people who supposedly lived their 2000 years ago as in todays converts and the 1200 ago Khazar converts that being essentially all the Ashkenazim.
 
I notice that in this entire post you did not respond to the points I actually made concerning preserved ancient documents (inscriptions, cuneiform tablets, etc.) regarding the Iron Age kingdoms of Israel and Judah. Among these, along with others, are the Moabite Stone, set up by Mesha, king of Moab, referring to Omri, king of Israel and Sennacherib's chronicle, telling how he devastated the land of Judah and shut King Hezekiah up in his capitol city Jerusalem. These records considerably antedate Alexander.

There are lots of reasons not to address them directly. The best reason is they are all as much or more wishful thinking as the Tel Dan inscription. There is hugely more written by Plato on Atlantis. If the same believers lack of standards were applied any place two stones were piled on top of each other would satisfy as proof of Atlantis.

A few possibly similar words which could have been available to any creator of the stories regardless of when the stories were created does not permit declaring a half million words of nonsense stories confirmed.

As is required for any future Atlantis is what has been required for Troy for well over a century, that the archaeology match the words describing the place. It is only in the last few years that a wall around "Troy" has been found to be long enough to match the time it took to drag the body around the city.

There is nothing even remotely approaching archaeological confirmation of the bible stories. That same rules apply to everything. There are no exceptions for bibleland. No special pleadings are acceptable. The standard of evidence for the bible and bibleland is the same as it is for the Iliad and Troy. Believers aren't even close.

So, tell me, to whom was Mesha referring if there was no kingdom of Israel when he erected the Moabite Stone, and to whom was Sennacherib referring in his chronicle when he tells of crushing Hezekiah's revolt and shutting him up in his royal city, Jerusalem, if there was no kingdom of Judah at the time?

Are you appealing to your ignorance or mine to beg the question? If I cannot answer the question to your satisfaction then the Red Sea parted and Solomon ruled from the Nile to the Euphrates. Is that about right?

Before I bother with the exercise of the inscriptions, which are not what you have been told and which you would know if you had examined them yourself, how do you know the authors of the fiction did not know of those inscriptions? It is a common practice today to use old names to give verisimilitude to historical fiction and fantasy. Xena Warrior Princess is a good enough example of doing it.

I will await the archaeological discovery of the equivalent of the discoveries of Troy before I will even consider there was a kingdom of the size described. Even with Troy at the present level of discovery it says nothing yet about the people involved or the causes or particular details of events.

If on the other hand the believers want to downgrade what it "really was before exaggerated" to just below what archaeology has shown cannot have been then that is a fools game I have no interest in playing. Every decade for the last century believers have decreased "what really was" while increasing the degree of exaggeration. The ratio was different 20 years ago, 10 years ago and it will be different 10 years from now as well as 20 and 30 years.

The ratio of real to exaggeration has been a continuing story of less more more exaggerated with no end in sight. Only a fool would fall for that game.
 
Could you give a reference for this? The latest evidence of Ashtart / Anath being worshipped alongside Yahweh, that I know of, goes back to the Elephantine papyri. Of course, Asherah figurines were quite common before the exile.

I'll take a look for it. I don't have things organized as professionals in the field. It is one of the things I need to do anyway for my theoretical book. I have collected the believers "support" for the mythical captivity in Babylon along with showing they do not mean what the believers want them to mean.

very first draft

I do not really intend a book as in paper publication but rather all the material in one place and free on the web. When it is free you know it is worth what you pay for it. Exchanges like this are what I use to learn what needs be added or addressed more completely.
 
You change homeland to stopover.

Stopover.

You mean they had maps and knew where they were headed? Did the ancient astronauts give them the maps? How do you know they immediately moved on? I presume you were not there.

...
.
One might wonder about the depth of knowledge, fer shure.
The "Holy Land" is a blip in the path of emigration and conquest.
Not attractive enough for most of the travelers spending a night or two (stopover) on their treks to the north and east...Golly, some even got to Patagonia!!!, from the ancestral -homelands- in Africa, or re-treks (invasions) to the areas with more value, as has been its fate since time immemorial.
"Just passing through, Ma'am.. the routine raping and pillaging keeps the guys active."
"And don't forget your tithes to the mucketies in just about every place other than there, that are the rulers."
 
Could you give a reference for this? The latest evidence of Ashtart / Anath being worshipped alongside Yahweh, that I know of, goes back to the Elephantine papyri. Of course, Asherah figurines were quite common before the exile.

Excuse. There is a better quick answer. There are to funerary inscriptions mention "Yahweh and his Ashara" found in bibleland from around 4th c. BC if I remember correctly. I first heard of that on a Brit documentary back in 1994. I have seen it on two others since them. Believers fall all over themselves to pretend it took until the 3rd c. BC to eradicate her worship.

It has to be on google.

There is no apparent connection between Elephantine and any later people. They are clearly not Jews as we would recognize Jews simply from the content of the letters. For example asking when is something translated as passover going to be celebrated. That would be OK for a phone call or email, possibly reasonable for snail mail but when there would be months between sending the letter and receiving a reply makes no sense at all.

On another note, I was going through some Egyptian mythology references and was surprised to find Astarte was a legitimate Egyptian goddess as a war goddess. So Ashara fertility and Astarte war suggests Athena and Aphrodite are a similar related pair of war and fertility. I haven't dug into that one yet.
 
.
One might wonder about the depth of knowledge, fer shure.
The "Holy Land" is a blip in the path of emigration and conquest.
Not attractive enough for most of the travelers spending a night or two (stopover) on their treks to the north and east...Golly, some even got to Patagonia!!!, from the ancestral -homelands- in Africa, or re-treks (invasions) to the areas with more value, as has been its fate since time immemorial.
"Just passing through, Ma'am.. the routine raping and pillaging keeps the guys active."
"And don't forget your tithes to the mucketies in just about every place other than there, that are the rulers."

Excuse sir but migrations out of Africa are not considered hiking trips. They are considered simply populations growing along shorelines and expanding into other areas. On the shore of what is now Egypt those on the eastern edge would have moved further east due to population increase or local depletion.

There was no destination. There was no north for them. That any direction was other than more of the same was an idea they could not have had until actually getting there.

There is no depth of knowledge to wonder about. There was none. There was no idea of any particular direction being colder or warmer, wetter or drier.

There is no credible reason to assume the first inhabitants of the eastern med were doing other than following the shoreline for food and moving inland as they learned to get food there. Any departures from the region would have been by diffusion due to population increase.

For a fact DNA studies break down into two major groups from two departure dates perhaps some 20,000 years apart. The oldest would likely have been by wading across the Horn of Africa due to the lowered sea level during the ice age. They eventually found themselves in far SE Asia, south Pacific Islands and Australia. They walked almost all the way because of the lowered sea level.

The second group was along the Med shore. DNA studies trace ALL people other than those of the first migration back to the eastern shore of the Med. This was a one time migration with a relatively very small gene set. ALL are descended from that original group. There were no groups coming along later and passing through. They all diffused from that group mainly from population pressure but also presumably from opportunities from finding better hunting weapons and tools.

All the DNA studies trace back to the people who are native to that region. The Ashkenazi are more distant than the Sephardim. The Palestinians today are people who were always there whose ancestors started as Judeans and converted to Islam either directly or indirectly through Christianity.

The myth of Rome expelling the Judeans was first debunked in the 4th c. pointing out it was only a prohibition against entering the walls of the rebuilt Jerusalem. That is the only Roman proclamation known. It was repealed by Justin the Apostate who succeeded Constantine. Judeans who left Judea did so completely of their own accord. They were not expelled, period.

I really do not know where you are coming from but I have touched on most of the themes believers raise. If I have missed yours please spell it out so I may address it.
 
But the fact that it reads like a historical narrative does put its creation after the invention of the style of historical narrative.

Which doesn't say much. People tried to record history as far back as the cavemen paintings of battles, some 20,000+ years ago. And in written form, a (half mythical) list of Sumerian kings and where they ruled, over whom, and when, is attested in an inscription as early as 2000 BCE on the Weld-Blundell Prism. The first known Egyptian attempt at keeping a historical list of kings is the Palermo Stone, dated circa 25'th century BCE, i.e., even earlier than the one we have from the Sumerians.

So, yeah, if all you're trying to say is that the Hebrew attempt at keeping history is later than 2000 BCE, we can agree there.

As I say, there is a risk to success. I was talking about the Septuagint stories being backstories for the Yahweh cult nearly two years before I discovered the Ptolemeys had previously successfully created Serapis.

Serapis is actually an awful example for your case there, since it's actually a Greek contraction of Osiris-Apis, a combination of two Egyptian gods. The Egyptians had been gradually merging their gods for 3000 years or so. E.g., Amun-Ra. Also according to Tacitus, it wasn't even really invented by the Ptolemys, it was the local god of the village they expanded into becoming Alexandria.

And even if you want to make Serapis a Greek invention, it was nevertheless a mix of two major Egyptian gods who had had increasingly overlapping domains anyway, and actually more Osiris than Apis. Osiris-Apis mostly kept the Osiris story, including having Isis as a wife and Horus as a kid, and all. And its acceptance by the Egyptians actually is explained by that: they were mostly just asked to keep worshipping their top God (Osiris had crawled back to the top by that time) with a different beard.

That was the other master-stroke, actually. Osiris was the only major male god who didn't have an animal head. So really, all the Greeks did to hellenize him was to give him a Greek beard instead of the traditional Beard Of Power +5, and a more western pose in the statues.

I.e., in any case Serapis doesn't appear out of nowhere, but is really just a slightly upgraded Osiris. As an example of inventing gods out of nowhere, you can't get a much bigger fail than using Serapis.

Speaking of whom I have never come across a single archaeological find of any inscription indicating there were ever any people who were called or who called themselves Canaanites. Arkies have identified the Phoenicians cities by their own names and of course the Hellenes of Joppa but nothing remotely like it for "Canaan." In fact the only usage I have found of that word among arkies (who should know better) is as a generic reference for the region much as I use bibleland.

In other words the Canaanites in addition to the Philistines are another fictional people invented by the Septuagint creators. Of course anyone who is not a believers will produce physical evidence of the ancient usage of the word not a one off find on some inscription which could as easily been where the Septuagint creators found the word.

"Canaanites" is just based on their geographical location, i.e., in Canaan. So it's really like referring to the Texans as Texans.

And references to Canaan by that name exist independent of the OT, and long before any of that OT stuff was composed anyway.

But to answer the question, try for example the Amarna letters. E.g., the Phoenicians in the area refer to themselves as Kenaani or Kinaani (i.e., Canaanites) in those letters.

Speaking of people who are found only in the Septuagint, Hebrews are among them as are Israelites. Only the name Judea/Judean has actually had people who called themselves that known to real history. Arkies find no such names in bibleland until the Greek period where Judea begins to appear.

Unsurprising, since Judaea is the Latin form of Judah. It may come as a surprise to you, but people do that kind of mangling foreign names to this day. E.g., what you call Rome is called Roma by its inhabitants, and they call their country Italia not Italy. Moskow is actually called Moskva in Russian, and they call their country Rossia, not Russia. Etc.

A lot of this is unlearning because so much has been spoken so commonly and with such authority that it takes a while to realize they are also found only in fiction. And as from Josephus, 'Jews who take their name from their land Judea.'

Whop-de-do, major revelation that ;) Of course Josephus writing in Latin would use the Latin name.

I have a whole other set of references which point to the consensus among linguists that what is called Hebrew is really Phoenician found where the Septuagint says the Jews lived. Of course believers are still wont to make claims about differences before spelling and grammar were standardized.

Sort of. The whole area spoke various dialects of related semitic languages descendants of Akkadian, of which Phoenician, Hebrew and Aramaic are three. But yes, the languages were closely related.

A more interesting example is from Ugarit with a phonetic version of cuneiform to represent Phoenician. At least there we find the oldest mention of the minor god Yahweh. How the folks in the hill country married Ashara off to that nere-do-well is still a mystery.

I don't think people asked politely before mugging someone and stealing their gods. Just ask the Egyptians how it went with the Hyskos and Seth :p

That is why I pointed out only believers claim it is other than Phoenician.

There are actually differences, but basically, yes, they are essentially dialects of the same semitic language. Sorta like Spanish and Portuguese.

But they were not monotheists. The first simple declarative sentence for monotheism is found in the Koran. The Judeans were never monotheists unless you want to insist there really was a famous person named Strato who had towers in Tyre, Jerusalem, and Caesarea. BYT STRT Temple Astarte next to the Antonine Fort in Jerusalem which was on the "temple mount" and all kinds of things follow from that.

We have only one god is not the same as there is only one god. The Christians used the term true god but the proper translation is true and false god in the sense of true and false patriot or lover. It meant not fickle as were the other gods. I believe in one god has the sense of faith and trust and is definitely not, I believe there is only one god. In fact the entire concept of refusing to worship other gods is nonsense if they in fact did believe there was only one god.

But if the Judeans had been monotheists they would have been the only monotheists in the entire world. They would have been the strangest people in the entire world. It would have been the one thing that made them different from other savages on the periphery of the empire. But no one mentioned it.

Well, yes, the consolidation into only one god would take some time. And yes, in a sense they were strange, but in another sense they weren't. Most ancient worship was actually monolatrous or henotheistic. We have tablets where one god is put above all others, or even denying all others, for every single god in the Sumerian pantheon, for example. One city or region or population group worshipping a god while (barely) tolerating the others was really the norm, and true polytheism was actually the rarer case.

Before Islam the most the Christians did was demote the pagan gods to demons when they had to explain how they could work cures and answer prayers just as well as Jesus.

I'm not sure how that's different. And, really, proclaiming the other gods false and their miracles and christ-like sons as done by Satan (centuries in advance, to confuse the Christians when the Christ finally happened, apparently) is at least as old as Justin Martyr, almost 5 centuries before the Islam.
 
I'll take a look for it. I don't have things organized as professionals in the field. It is one of the things I need to do anyway for my theoretical book. I have collected the believers "support" for the mythical captivity in Babylon along with showing they do not mean what the believers want them to mean.

very first draft

I do not really intend a book as in paper publication but rather all the material in one place and free on the web. When it is free you know it is worth what you pay for it. Exchanges like this are what I use to learn what needs be added or addressed more completely.

So, you're asserting that the Jews of the first century BCE were still worshipping Ashtart, but you either don't have any actual evidence they were doing so, or you think you have it but don't know where it is. Don't you think it's a good idea to actually have the evidence on hand if you're going to make an assertion that might get chalenged?
 
There are lots of reasons not to address them directly. The best reason is they are all as much or more wishful thinking as the Tel Dan inscription. There is hugely more written by Plato on Atlantis. If the same believers lack of standards were applied any place two stones were piled on top of each other would satisfy as proof of Atlantis.

A few possibly similar words which could have been available to any creator of the stories regardless of when the stories were created does not permit declaring a half million words of nonsense stories confirmed.

As is required for any future Atlantis is what has been required for Troy for well over a century, that the archaeology match the words describing the place. It is only in the last few years that a wall around "Troy" has been found to be long enough to match the time it took to drag the body around the city.

There is nothing even remotely approaching archaeological confirmation of the bible stories. That same rules apply to everything. There are no exceptions for bibleland. No special pleadings are acceptable. The standard of evidence for the bible and bibleland is the same as it is for the Iliad and Troy. Believers aren't even close.



Are you appealing to your ignorance or mine to beg the question? If I cannot answer the question to your satisfaction then the Red Sea parted and Solomon ruled from the Nile to the Euphrates. Is that about right?

Before I bother with the exercise of the inscriptions, which are not what you have been told and which you would know if you had examined them yourself, how do you know the authors of the fiction did not know of those inscriptions? It is a common practice today to use old names to give verisimilitude to historical fiction and fantasy. Xena Warrior Princess is a good enough example of doing it.

I will await the archaeological discovery of the equivalent of the discoveries of Troy before I will even consider there was a kingdom of the size described. Even with Troy at the present level of discovery it says nothing yet about the people involved or the causes or particular details of events.

If on the other hand the believers want to downgrade what it "really was before exaggerated" to just below what archaeology has shown cannot have been then that is a fools game I have no interest in playing. Every decade for the last century believers have decreased "what really was" while increasing the degree of exaggeration. The ratio was different 20 years ago, 10 years ago and it will be different 10 years from now as well as 20 and 30 years.

The ratio of real to exaggeration has been a continuing story of less more more exaggerated with no end in sight. Only a fool would fall for that game.

Here's the line from the Moabite Stone referring to Omri (ANET 320 - 321):

As for Omri, king of Israel, he humbled Moab many years, for Chemosh was angry with his land.

Chemosh was the god of the Moabites. Here's another reference to Israel from the Moabite Stone:

And Chemosh said to me, "Go, take Nebo from Israel!"

Here are some references to various Assyrian inscriptions that mention Israel and Judah:

Shalmaneser III (858 - 824), referring to his opponents at the battle of Qarqar mentions Ahab the Israelite (ANET 277 - 281).

At the beginning of his chronicle, Sargon II (721 - 705) refers to himself as, "conqueror of Samaria and the entire country of Israel" (ANET 284 - 287).

Sennacherib (704 - 681) wrote of suppressing a revolt in the western regions of his empire (ANET 287 - 288). He said of Hezekiah:

As to Hezekiah, the Jew, he did not submit to my yoke, I laid siege to 46 of his strong cities, walled forts and to countless small villages in their vicinity.

Sennacherib goes on to tell how he drove out of those cities 200,150 people and goes on to say of Hezekiah:

Himself I made a prisoner in his Jerusalem, his royal residence, like a bird in a cage.

In another inscription (same ANET reference) we read:

Sennacherib, king of the world, king of Assyria sat upon a nimedu-throne and passed in review the booty taken from Lachish.

Esarhaddon (680 - 699), referring to his Palestinan campaign (ANET 291) says he summoned various petty kings from west of the Euphrates. Among these is Menasseh, king of Judah.

The references are page numbers in Pritchard's Ancient Near-Eastern Texts (ANET) a compilation of the best translations of various preserved texts that in one way or another have some reference to the Bible. They are far from "wishful thinking."

Besides these texts, we have the ruins of Samaria and Lachish, among other cities, and archaeological strata in Jerusalem going back at least as far as the early Iron Age. All of this means nothing to you?
 
So, you're asserting that the Jews of the first century BCE were still worshipping Ashtart, but you either don't have any actual evidence they were doing so, or you think you have it but don't know where it is. Don't you think it's a good idea to actually have the evidence on hand if you're going to make an assertion that might get chalenged?

As long as it invalidates the Jews claim to Israel, it's good enough for Matt.
 
BTW, since Tim mentioned Omri, that's actually a good example of the "house of person" construct, as the Assyrians do refer a couple of times to Israel as the "house of Omri" or "land of Omri". As it's in the same Aramaic as the Tel Dan stele, well, I should think we can put the notion to rest that "house" only meant four walls and a roof.

But again with the mention that we still don't really know who or what the heck was DWD in the "house of DWD" construct.
 
You change homeland to stopover.

Stopover.

You mean they had maps and knew where they were headed? Did the ancient astronauts give them the maps? How do you know they immediately moved on? I presume you were not there.

Sorry but homeland is one hell of a lot better a fit than stopover as stopover implies a destination and it was impossible to have a destination.

H...
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The usual anti-Semitic crap omitted...
The early humans (pssst, they were -AFRICANS-... when leaving the center of Africa went whichever way they could and find food and shelter.
Nothing more than that.
Their "destination" would change as happenstance dictated.
The proto-word for north... my granddad never told me what that was.. or "thataway" and the "other thataway"... whatever navigation they did was capable of moving early man thousands of miles on foot.
Your quiver is empty when all you have is the silliness that obsesses you.
 
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The usual anti-Semitic crap omitted...

The truth cannot be antisemitic.
Refusal to believe the Jews ruled ancient Egypt?
Now that is antisemitic.

The early humans (pssst, they were -AFRICANS-... when leaving the center of Africa went whichever way they could and find food and shelter.
Nothing more than that.
Their "destination" would change as happenstance dictated.
The proto-word for north... my granddad never told me what that was.. or "thataway" and the "other thataway"... whatever navigation they did was capable of moving early man thousands of miles on foot.
Your quiver is empty when all you have is the silliness that obsesses you.

In one sense I can envy you. The entire subject of human migration out of Africa is before you to learn as you know nothing about it. You have an entire field where you can do nothing but learn new things. It is rare to find an area of pure learning that is easily grasped once one is in their 40s. Good luck and enjoy.

In a practical sense I cannot envy you your ignorance of the subject. Nor do I envy your inability to deal with the subject with other than person attack and further displays of ignorance.

But this hardly can excuse the gradeschool idea that a name based upon currently popular ideas of continents. Most clearly they were people of the Mediterranean to have followed the coast out of what today is called Africa. Try Saharans as it was forest and grasslands in those days to separate them from the jungle style of sub-Saharan.

You could also adopt the BBC view of the world which categorizes all of its news from the west coast of North Africa to Iran as Middle East. That would at least deal with cultural continuity.
 
Which doesn't say much. People tried to record history as far back as the cavemen paintings of battles, some 20,000+ years ago. And in written form, a (half mythical) list of Sumerian kings and where they ruled, over whom, and when, is attested in an inscription as early as 2000 BCE on the Weld-Blundell Prism. The first known Egyptian attempt at keeping a historical list of kings is the Palermo Stone, dated circa 25'th century BCE, i.e., even earlier than the one we have from the Sumerians.

Not only was the invention of Herodotus recognized as such in Greece as something new it was immediately imitated by Thucydides. Further it sparked a debate as to what should be the content of writings about history. The world agreed with Thucydides. If you think you have a serious case you should develop it as for nearly 2500 years the world has held as I have described.

If you wish to introduce your idea for discussion here you will have to describe it in much greater detail as I am only familiar with what the world minus you thinks should be considered written history. Until then I will stick with the difference between anecdotes and set pieces against causative chronologies.

So, yeah, if all you're trying to say is that the Hebrew attempt at keeping history is later than 2000 BCE, we can agree there.

People who exist only myth cannot do much of anything.

Serapis is actually an awful example for your case there, since it's actually a Greek contraction of Osiris-Apis, a combination of two Egyptian gods. The Egyptians had been gradually merging their gods for 3000 years or so. E.g., Amun-Ra. Also according to Tacitus, it wasn't even really invented by the Ptolemys, it was the local god of the village they expanded into becoming Alexandria.

Example of what? Simply that Ptolemey I did commission the creation of a god melding the traditions of Egypt and Greece. It was Manetho's day job. The statues of Serapis had Greek hair and clothing. It is not that the Greeks were against the idea as they usually fell all over themselves to credit Egypt with teaching them everything they knew.

And even if you want to make Serapis a Greek invention, it was nevertheless a mix of two major Egyptian gods who had had increasingly overlapping domains anyway, and actually more Osiris than Apis. Osiris-Apis mostly kept the Osiris story, including having Isis as a wife and Horus as a kid, and all. And its acceptance by the Egyptians actually is explained by that: they were mostly just asked to keep worshipping their top God (Osiris had crawled back to the top by that time) with a different beard.

Osiris and Adonis differed in what ways? Dying, going to the underworld for three days and then returning sounds awfully familiar to me. Are you assuming the Romans invented the idea of melding gods?

That was the other master-stroke, actually. Osiris was the only major male god who didn't have an animal head. So really, all the Greeks did to hellenize him was to give him a Greek beard instead of the traditional Beard Of Power +5, and a more western pose in the statues.

I.e., in any case Serapis doesn't appear out of nowhere, but is really just a slightly upgraded Osiris. As an example of inventing gods out of nowhere, you can't get a much bigger fail than using Serapis.

So the Yahweh cult was the first invented by the Ptolemeys if you insist. I do not see your point.

"Canaanites" is just based on their geographical location, i.e., in Canaan. So it's really like referring to the Texans as Texans.

It is the same as calling the Iroquois of the 16th c. New Yorkers. I only note I have not been able to come up with an arkie discovery of the use of the word, that it first appears in the Septuagint and is thus an Septuagint invention.

We know the real names for the region from well established ancient sources, Palestine, Syria, Phoenicia, Nabatea and so forth as well as local variants. None of them are Canaan. But if you know of any that do I assume you will be so kind as to give me the url.

And references to Canaan by that name exist independent of the OT, and long before any of that OT stuff was composed anyway.

But to answer the question, try for example the Amarna letters. E.g., the Phoenicians in the area refer to themselves as Kenaani or Kinaani (i.e., Canaanites) in those letters.

I have read such claims by believers. When I ask them for URLs they have been to the unsupported assertions of other believers. Therefore I am looking for the translation of inscriptions and the like found by arkies.

Unsurprising, since Judaea is the Latin form of Judah. It may come as a surprise to you, but people do that kind of mangling foreign names to this day. E.g., what you call Rome is called Roma by its inhabitants, and they call their country Italia not Italy. Moskow is actually called Moskva in Russian, and they call their country Rossia, not Russia. Etc.

I am pointing out the absence of any but a couple highly questionable believer translations using words like Hebrew and Israel such that they would be identifiable. I mean identifiable as are the usage of words like Athens and Babylon. That is the way the Septuagint uses the words but that is also the only place they are found.

Whop-de-do, major revelation that ;) Of course Josephus writing in Latin would use the Latin name.

He wrote in Greek. I simply gave a loose translation into English for the purpose of citing the origin of the name. Thus Jews and Judeans are interchangeable. Similarly they called the Christians Galilieans a name used by Justin the Apostate.

Sort of. The whole area spoke various dialects of related semitic languages descendants of Akkadian, of which Phoenician, Hebrew and Aramaic are three. But yes, the languages were closely related.

Except that it is like declaring Spartan and Athenian were different languages. There really was no Hebrew language different from Phoenician therefore it is misleading to call it anything but Phoenician regardless of where it is found.

I don't think people asked politely before mugging someone and stealing their gods. Just ask the Egyptians how it went with the Hyskos and Seth :p

Gods were fungible. Adonis, Osiris and Jesus. Not much difference in the important mythology of conquering death. Obviously conflicting stories of Isis being both the mother and consort of Osiris were swallowed the consummate skill of true believers everywhere.

There are actually differences, but basically, yes, they are essentially dialects of the same semitic language. Sorta like Spanish and Portuguese.

But without any distinction from a time when they were all from Espana or rabbit land if one prefers.

Well, yes, the consolidation into only one god would take some time. And yes, in a sense they were strange, but in another sense they weren't. Most ancient worship was actually monolatrous or henotheistic.

Henotheist is an invention of believers solely to pretend their bible good guys were different from everyone else. Even if the Septuagint stories were valid the priests of the Yahweh cult were constantly railing against polytheism. They were simply cult leaders. The religion of the priests is not the religion of the people. The people establish the facts. The cult leaders simply try to impose their minority idea upon everyone.

But as we know from surviving mention and from archaeology the people had both Yahweh and Ashara as their local pair. Neighboring groups had such pairs under different names such as Dushara and Al Uzza of the Naboteans who were similarly a mountain god and and fertility goddess like the Judean pair. Unless believers want to insist upon the great man Strato there was a temple of Astarte in Jerusalem in Roman times. And thus the Judeans were demonstrably polytheists in Roman times.

We have tablets where one god is put above all others, or even denying all others, for every single god in the Sumerian pantheon, for example. One city or region or population group worshipping a god while (barely) tolerating the others was really the norm, and true polytheism was actually the rarer case.

Perhaps but we know the Judeans had at least those two gods so what things might have been like other places is not particularly important.

I'm not sure how that's different. And, really, proclaiming the other gods false and their miracles and christ-like sons as done by Satan (centuries in advance, to confuse the Christians when the Christ finally happened, apparently) is at least as old as Justin Martyr, almost 5 centuries before the Islam.

The absence a simply declaration of there being one and only one god prior to Islam is what cannot be missed. The real meaning of the words which are commonly passed off as evidence of monotheism are all misleading and do not indicate monotheism. It is an distinction one needs to keep in mind when reading ancient sources. They make much more sense if you do. Refusing to worship other gods makes no sense at all if in fact one believes there is only one god.
 
So, you're asserting that the Jews of the first century BCE were still worshipping Ashtart, but you either don't have any actual evidence they were doing so, or you think you have it but don't know where it is. Don't you think it's a good idea to actually have the evidence on hand if you're going to make an assertion that might get chalenged?

I said I do not have it to hand to post here at this time. I am talking about what I have found not making a case before a court. I gave a link to a source where I have put much of the material I have collected to date. Later versions will contain it.

However there is no reason not to talk about things I have come across but which I have yet to properly document. If it bothers you then don't believe it. I have no interest in what you believe.
 
Here's the line from the Moabite Stone referring to Omri (ANET 320 - 321):

...

Besides these texts, we have the ruins of Samaria and Lachish, among other cities, and archaeological strata in Jerusalem going back at least as far as the early Iron Age. All of this means nothing to you?

They are all quite interesting but the standard remains the same as it is for Troy. That is archaeological finds which match the details of given in the stories about them.
 
...


In one sense I can envy you. The entire subject of human migration out of Africa is before you to learn as you know nothing about it. You have an entire field where you can do nothing but learn new things. It is rare to find an area of pure learning that is easily grasped once one is in their 40s. Good luck and enjoy.
...
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No need for envy, just educate yourself.
I have this nifty book from the Scientific American Library.. "The Origin of Modern Humans", by Robert Lewin.
Covers the subject thoroughly, from bones through DNA. mDNA, linguistics.. really a very compendium of the facts.
And never mentions anything about "aryan superiority"... I know that will be a blow.
Shows migration path from Central Africa.
Really a good compendium of the facts.
 
BTW, since Tim mentioned Omri, that's actually a good example of the "house of person" construct, as the Assyrians do refer a couple of times to Israel as the "house of Omri" or "land of Omri". As it's in the same Aramaic as the Tel Dan stele, well, I should think we can put the notion to rest that "house" only meant four walls and a roof.

But again with the mention that we still don't really know who or what the heck was DWD in the "house of DWD" construct.

Either "house" of Omri and LAND of Omri when it has been pointed out BYT means place to live. Is not "land of" a place to live?

You want a land of Omri? Try Samaria. It fits as well as a person named Omri although contrived translations will vary.

I clearly stated in the beginning that it means any kind of a place to live and BYTLHM was the first example given for it meaning town as in a place to live not as a place with four walls.

Someone else gave a string up uses where they also meant places to live. A temple was a place for a god to live. BYT YHWH and BYT STRT were no exceptions. The Astarte temple in Tyre had five sides and the one in Jerusalem eight sides so even four walls is out.
 

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