Why civilization itself is unsustainable

BTW, Simon allows me to laugh at the concept of "peak oil", as it's largely irrelevant. Current oil prices, while shocking in their rates of change, are still accounted for, and are still fairly cheap in the bigger picture.
 
I don't take it quite so literally, I tend to think that he means screwing up the life on our planet. Though that doesn't seem to work with the other planets bit, at least not in this solar system: they all look pretty dead so far.
Maybe, maybe not. I'm fascinated by this. :)

sorry, off topic a bit I know. :blush:
 
Indeed. So we have no reason to care for it, but we do have reason (and need) to care for ourselves.

I don't see where "so" comes from. From the fact that someone or something doesn't care for me it doesn't follow that I have no reason to care for him/her/it.

I think, like you, that it's ridiculous to worry about corrupting inanimate matter. There's no argument that I can see to prevent us from making use of off-planet resources.

I can see putting value on non-human life on earth though. I certainly value human life more, but that doesn't mean I don't value non-human life at all.
 
Though TFian's idea that "civilization itself" is "unsustainable" seems much too extreme, what is bad about a civilization that doesn't keep destroying more and more and more? E.g. species keep going extinct, more and more and more of them now. Do we really want to annihilate every other last bit of life on our planet than our own? If not, then it'd seem we'd have to stop growing, at least in terms of population -- because as long as the population gets bigger, it crowds out everything else: most of that loss is due to habitats disappearing to make room for additional people.
 
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Actually, yes it is.

Where would it come from? Nuclear? Even with nuclear, how do you get launch costs down so low the average person can afford space travel? There's more to launch costs than just the energy cost. How do you get rockets to be as "cheap as dirt"? Rockets don't just appear when they're needed. And how long it'd take to get even one other planet up to snuff for moving vast quantities of people there? It could be a hundred years or more before we get any of that stuff done. Consider how slowly advances have been in space travel over the last few decades. E.g. the fastest space probe we have launched is not much faster than the Voyager probes of 30 years ago. And that's just a robot. Manned missions have been really limited, too. To make a dent in population we're gonna need to get to massive, cheap, common spaceflight for millions and millions of people -- a "space fleet" with numerous massive vessels. Such a revolution doesn't seem possible "overnight". I'd wager a hundred years or more to get to this level unless something extremely revolutionary comes along (do you want to bet on that? Especially considering how incremental technological change seems to be.).

The problem is not whether or not X is possible, the problem is how fast can we do it -- can we race the clock to avoid a crunch of some kind (and this doesn't mean going to the stone age or whatever TFian says. Things like this are not black and white. It's not a choice where the only options are "just keep going as usual" and "stone age", or even worse, "extinction".)? Because of that, it'd seem that as a simple matter of reason, we should at the very least get serious trying to de-exponentialize growth in population/resource consumption somehow right now, instead of letting it balloon while we wait on these huge things that could take a century, two centuries, even, to get going. That would give us more time to implement additional measures, not to mention help getting us on to a smarter course overall (which doesn't, by the way, mean "back to the stone age".). It just seems rational that we should try and get a handle on growth and we should take that seriously! That is not the same thing as "oh ◊◊◊◊, we're gonna be extinct!!!!!!!!" apocalypticism!

Energy is far form the only problem here insofar as mass spaceflight is concerned. Heck, if we want to even have a shot at it we're gonna need to get our politics straight. Like in the USA, we spend $700 billion a year on military -- wouldn't it be much better to spend that on space travel instead? If we really need space travel then our priorities are really screwed up to heck with that! ($700G/year to make things (weapons) to give us the opposite of survival (death).)That's another factor: political will, and also common people's will (to limit their breeding, to be more responsible with energy, etc.). Indeed, I think the problem of will is probably the most significant one here. Not some idea that "civilization itself is fundamentally unsustainable". So far, our progress toward getting to sustainable civilization (not an oxymoron like TFian paints it to be) does not seem at all adequate, given our continuing high level of dependency on fossil fuels and continuing exponential growth.
 
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Any party to allow this would be decimated next election.

You're probably right there, but there's a *possible* third alternative, increased automation, they're having problems scaling it up, but I don't see how it's technically impossible.

But seriously, I don't understand your reasoning by them being a third world nation occupied by "Korea" (which one?) or China. That seems like crystal ball gazing to me.
 
BTW, Simon allows me to laugh at the concept of "peak oil", as it's largely irrelevant. Current oil prices, while shocking in their rates of change, are still accounted for, and are still fairly cheap in the bigger picture.

I cannot speak to the big picture, but I can say what is going on in my little dot on the map. I am seeing a lot of kids and young adults on motorized bikes and scooters rather than cars. There have been a number of parents shuttling their preschoolers to daycare/preschool tucked in the back of bicycle trailers. I've even seen dogs towing carts. We are also seeing pedestrians.

When the gas goes down, these changes don't relax. When the gas goes up, more non-cars hit the side streets.

When you do see cars, you see more of those little smart cars hiding in what one thought was an empty parking spot.
 
I think you're shopping for ideas that support your political philosophies and opinions over the class based society we've evolved.

Not at all, I think the best form of human society at one point was feudalism to be honest. It's what originally got me into the works of Ayn Rand.

But really, I'm just saying it as I see it. We're a doomed species sealing our own fate. And I don't think that's a bad thing. As John Gray says “and happily it doesn’t need saving… Homo rapiens is only one of very many species, and not obviously worth preserving. Later or sooner, it will become extinct. When it is gone Earth will recover. Long after the last traces of the human animal have disappeared, many of the species it is bent on destroying will still be around, along with others that have yet to spring up. The Earth will forget mankind. The play of life will go on.”

His works are very much reading IMO, as he points out "We humans have not changed and cannot change what we are, what we do, how we behave or what we value. We are doomed by the coding in our DNA to continue along our inexorable path of self-destruction, and to inflict large-scale but ultimately transitory damage on our planet in the process. "

In Gray’s view it is not up to us at all. Our role was cast millennia ago, and we’re merely playing it out. Quoting EO Wilson “Darwin’s dice have rolled badly for Earth”, Gray goes on: “The destruction of the natural world is not the result of global capitalism, industrialization, Western civilization, or any flaw in human institutions. It is a consequence of the evolutionary success of an exceptionally rapacious primate.”

There's just no way to beat that!
 
Not at all, I think the best form of human society at one point was feudalism to be honest. It's what originally got me into the works of Ayn Rand.
Hey well within our much better form of society you and your friends can go set up feudal system in the woods! Have fun!
But really, I'm just saying it as I see it. We're a doomed species sealing our own fate.
Are you psychic? You are objectively wrong. Plus, this narrative is less and less popular with the rationalists. My hippie friends seem to all care for it still though...:rolleyes:
And I don't think that's a bad thing. As John Gray says “and happily it doesn’t need saving… Homo rapiens is only one of very many species, and not obviously worth preserving.
Speak for yourself and your descendants. Humans are the coolest and we shall traverse the universe.
Later or sooner, it will become extinct. When it is gone Earth will recover.
Our descendants could easily survive earth why are you... ohhh I remember this is religion :)
Long after the last traces of the human animal have disappeared, many of the species it is bent on destroying will still be around, along with others that have yet to spring up. The Earth will forget mankind. The play of life will go on.”
Sure sounds like religion.:p
His works are very much reading IMO
IMO this man speaks the jibberish.
as he points out "We humans have not changed and cannot change what we are, what we do, how we behave or what we value. We are doomed by the coding in our DNA to continue along our inexorable path of self-destruction, and to inflict large-scale but ultimately transitory damage on our planet in the process. "
Religious, pseudoscientific gobbledeygook, depressing to boot.
In Gray’s view it is not up to us at all. Our role was cast millennia ago, and we’re merely playing it out. Quoting EO Wilson “Darwin’s dice have rolled badly for Earth”, Gray goes on: “The destruction of the natural world is not the result of global capitalism, industrialization, Western civilization, or any flaw in human institutions. It is a consequence of the evolutionary success of an exceptionally rapacious primate.”
There's a half-truth in there. This half-truth does not damn us.
There's just no way to beat that!
I'll vote for rational optimism along with the majority of people k thx. If you seriously believe all of this I hope you freeze yourself so wake up in 1000 years to see human beings living in a near-paradise.
 
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I'll vote for rational optimism along with the majority of people k thx. If you seriously believe all of this I hope you freeze yourself so wake up in 1000 years to see human beings living in a near-paradise.

Wait..what?? You describe religiosity to me, then blab on about some techno Utopian future of "near paradise"? Bahahahaha, I'm sorry if you can't see the irony in that...
 
I don't see how this even relates to the supposed unsustainability of civilization. Columbus exploited people, and after him (by the way, it happened before too) colonial powers continued to exploit people...

Okay, so? How do you go from that to "therefore we will all die!"?

I never said that it meant "we're all going to die!"
 
Tfian, you simply ignore the evidence that the world's population will reach it's maximum quite soon (and getting sooner every time it's re-calculated, perhaps 30 years from now) and will then reduce. This "hell in a handbasket" theory of yours is tiresome in the extreme.

What evidence?
 
Wait..what?? You describe religiosity to me, then blab on about some techno Utopian future of "near paradise"? Bahahahaha, I'm sorry if you can't see the irony in that...
Yeah so you misread my statement and got a laugh out of your your misinterpretation, whan an unexpected turn of events in a conversation of this nature. :rolleyes:

I'm merely saying that many people are striving to create the best possible world, I hope they succeed, and if they do I hope you get to see it. Now where' the evidence that we're doomed and this Gaia religion deserves our attention?
 
I'm merely saying that many people are striving to create the best possible world, I hope they succeed,

Sure but I don't see how that equates to some techno utopian star trek religion....

and if they do I hope you get to see it.

Sure?

Now where' the evidence that we're doomed and this Gaia religion deserves our attention?

What Gaia religion? Plenty of evidence we're doomed though http://energybulletin.net/stories/2011-04-27/there’s-something-happening-here…
 

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