Voluntary BDSM or Aggravated Assault?

Using those resources, we can't guarantee adulthood until 23-25 years of age...

Also using those resources, the rate of change after 12 years of age is significantly slower than before 12.

So, I'll ask again: Please provide evidence of the drastic difference between a 16 year old's brain and an 18 year old's brain.

Emphasis there on drastic. Minor subtle differences don't count.
 
Sorry, I don't follow. So, it this not ok too? Because the age difference in that relationship is 60 years. In the OP it's 14.
You don't think I would have married Sophia Loren, Brigitte Bardot, or Rachael Welch when I was 24? hehehe...Angie Dickinson, Jenny Agutter, Diana Rigg. (I have a long list of super hot older women.)

Double standards, much?

I'm a guy. We have double standards and if a female college professor took me under her wing it would not have been as evil as a male professor taking a female student under his wing. It's just the way the world is.
 
Using those resources, we can't guarantee adulthood until 23-25 years of age...

Also using those resources, the rate of change after 12 years of age is significantly slower than before 12.

So, I'll ask again: Please provide evidence of the drastic difference between a 16 year old's brain and an 18 year old's brain.

Emphasis there on drastic. Minor subtle differences don't count.

I'm not sure what would convince you here. Up until 23-25 the brain is still undergoing significant change. I don't think any biologist would call the difference of a two year span in the mid teenage years "minor". I don't think a youth psychologist would call the differences in accumulated experience "minor" either.

If you're looking for something magic and a little light to go off when you hit 18, then you'll be disappointed. There is no magic threshold when development is suddenly done, but like so many here, you're back to Loki's wager. While I can't say the exact course of brain formation and risk evaluation, in almost every case, going from 16-18 is going to be a hell of a lot better.
 
You don't think I would have married Sophia Loren, Brigitte Bardot, or Rachael Welch when I was 24? hehehe...Angie Dickinson, Jenny Agutter, Diana Rigg. (I have a long list of super hot older women.)



I'm a guy. We have double standards and if a female college professor took me under her wing it would not have been as evil as a male professor taking a female student under his wing. It's just the way the world is.

"I'm sexist" does not an argument make.
 
No, you made an observation about one thing the couple in question are reported to have done, and that it carried the risk of her nipple/s being ripped off that was dependent on, "skill, knowledge and concentration to keep that from happening," and that, "Outside of sex, we don't allow minors to take on that level of risk." You did not add any qualifier of the sort you are now introducing, so my observation about the equal or greater risk inherent in horse riding is perfectly valid (quite apart from the fact that in my country, someone learning to ride a horse may very well not be in the sort of environment you regard as mandatory).

You want to put those goal-posts back where they were?

Read the thread, I've posted about other youth activities with risk levels and the responsibilities that come with them numerous times. People have asked about skiing, martial arts, swimming.

I've already answered your question numerous times.
 
I'm not sure what would convince you here. Up until 23-25 the brain is still undergoing significant change. I don't think any biologist would call the difference of a two year span in the mid teenage years "minor". I don't think a youth psychologist would call the differences in accumulated experience "minor" either.

If you're looking for something magic and a little light to go off when you hit 18, then you'll be disappointed. There is no magic threshold when development is suddenly done, but like so many here, you're back to Loki's wager. While I can't say the exact course of brain formation and risk evaluation, in almost every case, going from 16-18 is going to be a hell of a lot better.
*sighs*

You're actually proving my point, and I don't even think you realize it.

There is no magic threshold when development is suddenly done. None. These age limits are largely arbitrary. 18 being the "magic number" for voting, getting married, signing contracts, being "an adult" is arbitrary, and not based on science.

Most of what you've said in this thread has made the distinction between "being an adult" and "not being an adult" as if "being an adult" is some magic threshold which automatically makes someone more responsible. This is simply not the case, and you've just proved it for me.

Going from 17 and 364 days old to 18 years old does not miraculously make someone more responsible, or better able to handle risk. Why on earth are you approaching this argument from a standpoint that assumes it does?
 
*sighs*

You're actually proving my point, and I don't even think you realize it.

There is no magic threshold when development is suddenly done. None. These age limits are largely arbitrary. 18 being the "magic number" for voting, getting married, signing contracts, being "an adult" is arbitrary, and not based on science.

Most of what you've said in this thread has made the distinction between "being an adult" and "not being an adult" as if "being an adult" is some magic threshold which automatically makes someone more responsible. This is simply not the case, and you've just proved it for me.

Going from 17 and 364 days old to 18 years old does not miraculously make someone more responsible, or better able to handle risk. Why on earth are you approaching this argument from a standpoint that assumes it does?

You keep on riding that Loki's wager like it owes you lunch money!

There is a firm distinction between being an adult and being a teenager. It doesn't happen suddenly, but it does happen, just like white can fade by tiny steps into black. Even though there's a lot of gray in between, there is a definite change, and a definite difference between the two extremes.

Yep, any cutoff point you choose is going to have an element of arbitrary in it. When you argue, like you do above, as though I've said at any point that there is some magical line that people cross and become adults, it's insulting, it's a straw argument, and it shows you haven't read my posts in this thread.

Law, and everything else we try to do to make this world a better place is all about risk management. With incomplete information, we try to make the best rules we can.

I've made the argument that we already societally stagger our acceptance of risks to youth, that different risks can be taken on at different times. It's a profoundly imperfect system, but it I don't see the alternatives working any better. In our last few posts, I discussed why it's reasonable for the sexual age of consent to be fairly low even though there are substantial risks, and I've pointed out what differentiates those risks from those that are part of some kinks.

If you'd like to argue any of those points, I'm happy to discuss them, but please, no sarcastic *sighs* and misstatements of my position.
 
And there is already a cut off point - the age of consent. If you want to argue for a change in the cut off point for this particular activity, you are going to need something more concrete than older is better.
 
You can be sexist and right (unfortunately).

But if the only argument you are willing to present is based entirely on your sexism, you are not going to win many arguments. I'm open to being convinced - I'm probably as "vanilla" as they come - but you are going to have to find something a little more persuasive...
 
I've made the argument that we already societally stagger our acceptance of risks to youth, that different risks can be taken on at different times. It's a profoundly imperfect system, but it I don't see the alternatives working any better. In our last few posts, I discussed why it's reasonable for the sexual age of consent to be fairly low even though there are substantial risks, and I've pointed out what differentiates those risks from those that are part of some kinks.
Except that you haven't.

You've pointed out differences in attempting to mitigate those risks, but not the differences in the risks themselves.

I see no difference in the risks.

As to societally staggering our acceptance of risks... I still say that those "staggerings" are largely arbitrary. How, exactly, is swimming in shark infested waters (which one can do with no regulation or adult present) any less dangerous than using a nipple clamp (which one needs to be 18 to even buy, as minors aren't allowed into sex shops despite ages of consent to sex being lower... see what I mean about arbitrary and contrary to logic)? Please, please do explain that one...
 
Well, you can stretch the threat in every single paintball game to potential loss of sight, which is also dependent on, "all participants continuing to be really smart and communicate really well." I would imagine that noose-play, on the other hand, isn't essential for every BDSM encounter.

That's just dependent on wearing your goggles. It doesn't take much skill, and it's pretty common sense.

I'm not saying the noose play is essential to BDSM, and I hope I'm being clear that I'm not advocating any blanket prohibition on BDSM. All I'm saying is that activities that in isolation would be regarded as assault aren't subject to a consent defense when one participant is a minor. In some places, consent isn't a defense already, especially if real injury is sustained, regardless of age. If it were up to me, (and much of the BDSM community) informed documented consent would always be a defense between adults. I personally think it would be prudent to exclude minors.
 
I continue to be amazed at how prudish this community is. A 16 year old girl making her own sexual decisions is just too darn liberal for ya'll? Are you freaking kidding me? I well and truly remember what it was like to be 16 and I have zero doubt in my mind that this girl can make her own decisions. This is exactly the kind of thing you learn from to become an adult.

Prudes one and all. Sometimes I feel like this is the church social forum and not the forum filled with the most hard core skeptics on the internet who are supposed to use things like logic.

I must go pick up my indian food now. Masala of Chicken Tikka delicious.
 
I continue to be amazed at how prudish this community is. A 16 year old girl making her own sexual decisions is just too darn liberal for ya'll? Are you freaking kidding me? I well and truly remember what it was like to be 16 and I have zero doubt in my mind that this girl can make her own decisions. This is exactly the kind of thing you learn from to become an adult.

Prudes one and all. Sometimes I feel like this is the church social forum and not the forum filled with the most hard core skeptics on the internet who are supposed to use things like logic.

I must go pick up my indian food now. Masala of Chicken Tikka delicious.

I assume you have only been reading half the posts in this thread?
 
I continue to be amazed at how prudish this community is. A 16 year old girl making her own sexual decisions is just too darn liberal for ya'll? Are you freaking kidding me? I well and truly remember what it was like to be 16 and I have zero doubt in my mind that this girl can make her own decisions. This is exactly the kind of thing you learn from to become an adult.

Prudes one and all. Sometimes I feel like this is the church social forum and not the forum filled with the most hard core skeptics on the internet who are supposed to use things like logic.

I must go pick up my indian food now. Masala of Chicken Tikka delicious.
You must have me on ignore...
 
You've asked questions that I'd group into two categories, and that both deserve substantial answers. if you don't mind, I'll answer the second one first, and the other when I find a moment.

As to societally staggering our acceptance of risks... I still say that those "staggerings" are largely arbitrary. How, exactly, is swimming in shark infested waters (which one can do with no regulation or adult present) any less dangerous than using a nipple clamp (which one needs to be 18 to even buy, as minors aren't allowed into sex shops despite ages of consent to sex being lower... see what I mean about arbitrary and contrary to logic)? Please, please do explain that one...

I'm not sure where you live, but where I live, beaches are closed if there's a particular hazard and swimming is prohibited. If a parent knowingly let their child swim in shark infested waters, then they could be prosecuted for child endangerment.

That said, not all risks are made illegal because there is a general reluctance to criminalize children as an attempt to manage their risks, because criminalizing them creates a negative effect by itself. So there really isn't an effective way to stop children from engaging in some dangerous acts without criminalizing them.

What we tend to be able to do though, is to minimize risks by putting limits on how adults interact with them. For instance, in the US, it is not illegal for underaged persons to drink alcohol (in most states) There is a comparatively small fine for them if they buy alcohol, or are found in public possession, but the weight of the law comes down on those over 21 who would buy alcohol for minors, or bars who would serve them.

In your example, for instance, I don't know your exact jurisdiction, but I'd wager that the law has a relatively low, or non-existent penalty for minors entering a sex shop, and a fairly heavy one for sex shops allowing minors in or making sales to them.

I can't say I agree with the prohibition on minors in sex shops, especially those who are above the age of sexual consent. But that's a "risk" that certain populations have decided to act on.

But I'm sure you see the general basis behind the policies, that acting to minimize risks to minors, it is fairly effective to regulate adults, who can be expected to understand and attempt to minimize risks to themselves, and it would be fairly ineffective and likely counterproductive to try to directly regulate the actions of minors. "You're under arrest for your own good" is only useful in very extreme cases.
 
That didn't really address my question. You are again talking about differences in ways to mitigate risks, instead of addressing differences in the risks themselves.
 
You don't think I would have married Sophia Loren, Brigitte Bardot, or Rachael Welch when I was 24? hehehe...Angie Dickinson, Jenny Agutter, Diana Rigg. (I have a long list of super hot older women.)



I'm a guy. We have double standards and if a female college professor took me under her wing it would not have been as evil as a male professor taking a female student under his wing. It's just the way the world is.

I'd rather you didn't paint all men with the same brush. Not all men think that women should not be allowed the same level of sexual exploration. If a college professor is not exploiting their position of authority, there is nothing "evil" about a relationship with a student, although it may be ill-advised.
 

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