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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Where did Filomena make the claim that her room was nice and neat and clean when she left it?


Beats me.

That's what I was asking.

So, having made the claim of being normally fastidious she was afraid that she might be caught out in this incriminating deception by the investigators, and this prompted her to lie to them?

Had she made such a claim? Did anyone else offer any suggestions to that effect? I seem to recall that someone had.


This would seem to be the inference suggested by Chris C. and babycondors' posts.

Perhaps I misunderstood.

Maybe she "wasn't very forthcoming" for other reasons they were suggesting and I just could not grasp the gist of the exchange.
 
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Beats me.

That's what I was asking.




This would seem to be the inference suggested by Chris C. and babycondors' posts.

Perhaps I misunderstood.

Maybe she "wasn't very forthcoming" for other reasons they were suggesting and I just could not grasp the gist of the exchange.

Part of the confusion is the translation error in the Massei report.

"Quindi oltre al ricordo ben nitido la teste ha anche riferito di essere entrata nella propria stanza e di aver cercato se mancasse qualcosa ed in tale ricerca ha anche spostato degli oggetti modificando quindi l'ubicazione dei pezzi di vetro."

The PMF translation has it as this:

"As she is usually very orderly, the witness also stated that she entered into her own room and searched around to see if anything was missing, and during that search she moved objects, thus changing the position of some pieces of glass."

As has been pointed out, there is nothing in the original Italian that has anything to do with her being "orderly". Amanda has indicated that her room was normally straight, and Filomena has indicated she left in a hurry and that she was running late.

Both have indicated the state of the room after the break-in was a mess, but it is the state of the room before that is important here. Certainly there wasn't glass everywhere beforehand and some of the clothes appear to have fallen out of her wardrobe. I doubt that a burglar would position that stuff on the bed or table that way or the bags and boots on the floor. It looks like a room where someone left in a hurry without having time to tidy up after packing for a couple of days away from the flat.
 
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Should we contrast this with the general consensus (among a certain faction) that Knox could hardly be expected to notice the only functioning lamp in her room was missing for perhaps as long as six days?

Why would we expect Filomena to possess an eidetic recollection of the placement of every item in her room while Knox cannot be expected to notice the absence of a unique furnishing which under most circumstances she would be using on a regular basis?


You keep presenting this claim that Amanda's lamp was somehow an important part of her room yet you fail to acknowledge how little you actually know about it. For instance, when was the last time Amanda was in her room and needed to use that lamp?

For the last 6 days, Amanda was spending the night with Raffaele at his apartment. During this time she would not necessarily notice where the lamp was or wasn't because by the time she returned in the morning there would be plenty of light coming into her room through the patio doors.

Do you even know where her lamp was in her room when she last used it? In the earliest photo of her room it's on the bedside table. It would be useful here for reading in bed. I would also expect it to have been used on the table next to the computer. The long cord could have reached between the two locations without requiring an extension cord as Meredith had on her lamp.

So we have a room accessory that could at any time be in either of at least 2 locations that may not have been used for about a week or more. When Amanda looks at her desk, there is no clue that the lamp is missing because the lamp could have been on the bedside table. Similarly, when Amanda looks at the bedside table there is no clue that the lamp is missing because it could be on the desk. The only way to notice that the lamp is missing is to first think about where the lamp is and note that it is not in either of the locations where it should be.

In the context of looking for things that might have been stolen in a burglary, where on the list would you put the lamp? I believe there are only a few items that Amanda would explicitly look for. Her computer would be number one. She would then grab her rent money if she had left it in the room. And she would check that the guitar that she borrowed from Laura was still there. In my opinion, the lamp would not make the list.


On the other hand, If Amanda had just spent all night using that lamp to remove every bit of evidence that she and Raffaele were in Meredith's room and then in the morning watched Raffaele try to break down Meredith's door to retrieve the lamp, she most definitely would have known that her lamp was missing from her room. Why wouldn't she mention that it was missing?
 
Part of the confusion is the translation error in the Massei report.

"Quindi oltre al ricordo ben nitido la teste ha anche riferito di essere entrata nella propria stanza e di aver cercato se mancasse qualcosa ed in tale ricerca ha anche spostato degli oggetti modificando quindi l'ubicazione dei pezzi di vetro."

The PMF translation has it as this:

"As she is usually very orderly, the witness also stated that she entered into her own room and searched around to see if anything was missing, and during that search she moved objects, thus changing the position of some pieces of glass."

As has been pointed out, there is nothing in the original Italian that has anything to do with her being "orderly". Amanda has indicated that her room was normally straight, and Filomena has indicated she left in a hurry and that she was running late.

Both have indicated the state of the room after the break-in was a mess, but it is the state of the room before that is important here. Certainly there wasn't glass everywhere beforehand and some of the clothes appear to have fallen out of her wardrobe. I doubt that a burglar would position that stuff on the bed or table that way or the bags and boots on the floor. It looks like a room where someone left in a hurry without having time to tidy up after packing for a couple of days away from the flat.


You seem to be saying that it was Knox who made the claim that Filomena was "normally tidy". Should we now assume that she was being less than forthcoming?

... and that the only real reason we have to think that Filomema's room was in some 'abnormal' state is because she was somehow hurried this one time in a fashion that would be substantially different from any other time she left to go visit with friends, or go anywhere, for that matter.

This seems like a very wishful conjecture which might be colored by certain prejudices. Is there any substantial evidence to support the premise that it was such a singular episode in her normal routine?
 
You seem to be saying that it was Knox who made the claim that Filomena was "normally tidy". Should we now assume that she was being less than forthcoming?

... and that the only real reason we have to think that Filomema's room was in some 'abnormal' state is because she was somehow hurried this one time in a fashion that would be substantially different from any other time she left to go visit with friends, or go anywhere, for that matter.

This seems like a very wishful conjecture which might be colored by certain prejudices. Is there any substantial evidence to support the premise that it was such a singular episode in her normal routine?

There are the photos. Take a look at the room and tell me what items you think were part of an existing mess and what were made by a burglar (or a stager)?
 
Ain't it Funny...

In reading the last multitude of posts here, I find scant if any significant references to the here to fore revered and repeatedly regurgitated Blogger extraordinaire, Mister Sfarzo.

Have all his acolytes here gotten off their knees in his presence, turned their backs and closed their ears as a sign of revolt ?

Could this possibly be because in his characteristically no holds barred style, he has just exposed one of the most prolific FOAKers who has his own copycat Forum and book, as being 'confused', as well as coming to several other 'less than complimentary' conclusions about that individual and his rants?

Or maybe because Mister Sfarzo also just declared that Ms Stefanoni does not really deserve all the tired talking point vitriol laced criticisms endlessly directed at her by FOAKer Groupies.

This last one particularly hits close to home here, does it not ??
Is that why he has been strangely absent of mention here today ?

Disclaimers to minimize trivial rebuttal:

Mr Sfarzo often says things I disagree with, and I personally can still pass in front of him (and Candace) without genuflecting.
But to his credit he often provokes thought, and sometimes reconsideration on my part.(Candace does not)

The above opinions are from my reading his replies to the newest of the 215 comments to his 6apr issue.
My opinions and interpretations are in no way proffered as 'reading Mr Sfarzo's mind' nor are they verbatim quotes.
But they are "the best truths I could think of".
 
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being addressed correctly

To all,

I would prefer it if all commenters refrained from the use of the term FOAKer. I find it offensive for what I hope are obvious reasons. Thank you.
 
In reading the last multitude of posts here, I find scant if any significant references to the here to fore revered and repeatedly regurgitated Blogger extraordinaire, Mister Sfarzo.

Have all his acolytes here gotten off their knees in his presence, turned their backs and closed their ears as a sign of revolt ?

Could this possibly be because in his characteristically no holds barred style, he has just exposed one of the most prolific FOAKers who has his own copycat Forum and book, as being 'confused', as well as coming to several other 'less than complimentary' conclusions about that individual and his rants?

Or maybe because Mister Sfarzo also just declared that Ms Stefanoni does not really deserve all the tired talking point vitriol laced criticisms endlessly directed at her by FOAKer Groupies.

This last one particularly hits close to home here, does it not ??
Is that why he has been strangely absent of mention here today ?

Disclaimers to minimize trivial rebuttal:

Mr Sfarzo often says things I disagree with, and I personally can still pass in front of him (and Candace) without genuflecting.
But to his credit he often provokes thought, and sometimes reconsideration on my part.(Candace does not)

The above opinions are from my reading his replies to the newest of the 215 comments to his 6apr issue.
My opinions are in no way to be interpreted as 'reading Mr Sfarzo's mind' nor are they verbatim quotes

You're really enjoying this aren't you, Pilot? You've broken out the popcorn to enjoy the show, hoping to see more 'friendly fire' between innocentisti haven't you? You've even picked a side! :D

As for Stefanoni, Frank will have to live with her, I only suffer vicariously through my concern for Raffaele and Amanda. If he wants someone who can conjure voodoo and call it 'science' through what you get trying to attain a DNA profile from a 10 picogram sample with a 28 cycle STR kit, he can have it, in the end it's not my affair. Her 'work' has discredited itself at this point, and in my opinion Frank's right about the real villains of this piece, the 'heroes' of November 6th.

However, while we're on the subject of faction feuds, I think there's many here quite curious as to any insight you could offer on the subject of why a certain 'source' we all use went dark a few weeks back and came back in duplicate--or was it divided? There must be some juicy gossip you can share with us all, many are very interested in what might have gone on behind the scenes. There's been whispered wonderings, spicy speculation and raunchy rumors, perhaps you could put them to rest for us? Perhaps in the spirit of noblesse oblige you could entertain us benighted 'groupies' with the real scoop? :)

Oh, and do you know what happened to the version of the Massei Report on the Seattle PI website? There hasn't been a 'falling out' with Andrea Vogt, has there? Isn't that her paper?
 
You keep presenting this claim that Amanda's lamp was somehow an important part of her room yet you fail to acknowledge how little you actually know about it. For instance, when was the last time Amanda was in her room and needed to use that lamp?


I have made no such claim. Misrepresenting what I have said does not lend any strength to your arguments. Rather the contrary.

I have suggested that it was a singular part of her room furnishings. In that there was apparently no other piece of equipment, fixed or movable, which supplied the same functionality. What part of this do you take issue with?

As to your question, I have not "failed to acknowledge" anything. Why do you make such a false claim? Quite obviously I know no more about that than you do, which makes any conjecture dependent solely on likelihood. You are insinuating that yours is more likely than any other, and I have offered none at all.

So why do you ask me this question? Wouldn't it be more appropriate for you to explain yourself.

This entire tangent was initiated simply because I asked for a clarification of a claim made by LJ concerning the availability of artificial light sources in Knox's bedroom, and was hoping to have my recollection either confirmed or corrected.

For the last 6 days, Amanda was spending the night with Raffaele at his apartment. During this time she would not necessarily notice where the lamp was or wasn't because by the time she returned in the morning there would be plenty of light coming into her room through the patio doors.


"Not necessarily". Yes. I accept that. This does not address likelihood, which I have also made no particular claims about, except in relation to other peoples' assertions.

Again, there has been nothing shared which would make one hypothesis more likely than another.

I am, as I type this, sitting in a living room on a couch within a yard of a six foot wide sliding glass door which opens onto a southeast facing porch. It is early afternoon and yet I have the lamp beside the couch turned on (two bulbs) to augment the natural daylight. This is not an unusual state of affairs. Why should I assume that Knox would never find any need for her lamp simply because it isn't after dark?

Do you even know where her lamp was in her room when she last used it?


Do you? Why do you ask me? In what way is that germane to the question of whether or not she would notice the lamp's absence?

In the earliest photo of her room it's on the bedside table. It would be useful here for reading in bed. I would also expect it to have been used on the table next to the computer. The long cord could have reached between the two locations without requiring an extension cord as Meredith had on her lamp.


And ...?

So we have a room accessory that could at any time be in either of at least 2 locations that may not have been used for about a week or more. When Amanda looks at her desk, there is no clue that the lamp is missing because the lamp could have been on the bedside table. Similarly, when Amanda looks at the bedside table there is no clue that the lamp is missing because it could be on the desk. The only way to notice that the lamp is missing is to first think about where the lamp is and note that it is not in either of the locations where it should be.


Are you quite certain that this would be the "only" way? It seems to me that you might be rather cavalierly discarding other potentially feasible scenarios.

Or is there a careful phrasing here which would give you semantic wiggle room if pressed for more detail?

Why would you do that? Are you motivated by something other than an honest contemplation of what little we do actually know about the circumstances?

In the context of looking for things that might have been stolen in a burglary, where on the list would you put the lamp? I believe there are only a few items that Amanda would explicitly look for. Her computer would be number one. She would then grab her rent money if she had left it in the room. And she would check that the guitar that she borrowed from Laura was still there. In my opinion, the lamp would not make the list.


In your opinion. :rolleyes:

Since it is also apparently your opinion that she could easily go for nearly a week blithely unaware of its absence I can certainly understand how you might come to such a conclusion.

It is not as clear to me that this is, of itself, any cause to attribute additional weight to its likelihood.



On the other hand, If Amanda had just spent all night using that lamp to remove every bit of evidence that she and Raffaele were in Meredith's room and then in the morning watched Raffaele try to break down Meredith's door to retrieve the lamp, she most definitely would have known that her lamp was missing from her room. Why wouldn't she mention that it was missing?


Good question.

I have not ventured to answer it, either. Nor would I, not least because I have no particular attachment to the premise you found it upon, which is that Sollecito attempted to break through the door in order to retrieve the lamp.

I have not offered such a hypothesis, and I have not indicated that it has any merit ... in my opinion. Are you suggesting that I did, or is this merely another attempt at misdirection?
 
You're really enjoying this aren't you, Pilot? You've broken out the popcorn to enjoy the show, hoping to see more 'friendly fire' between innocentisti haven't you? You've even picked a side! :D

I liked that one, Kaosium.

But really I did not have to 'break out' any of my popcorn.

Every time I came here for the first couple of weeks after the PMF short disappearance and split, I found piles of unfinished popcorn, party hats, streamers, confetti, oooga horns, etcccccccc.
 
There are the photos. Take a look at the room and tell me what items you think were part of an existing mess and what were made by a burglar (or a stager)?


That seems like a remarkably pointless exercise to me, one which would only be of use to an advocate of one theory or another.

I feel constrained to limit myself to the statements made by the people who were most familiar with the normal state of things, and in what ways the state of the room differed on the day Meredith's body was discovered. So far this appears to be limited to the residents of the apartment.
 
Slobs, Mobs and goundhogs

To all,

I would prefer it if all commenters refrained from the use of the term FOAKer. I find it offensive for what I hope are obvious reasons. Thank you.


And as Dr. Hibbert in the Simpsons puts it - "And hillbillies want to be called 'Sons of the Soil' , But it ain't gonna happen." :)

Apropos of nothing, he also opines - "We've given the word "mob" a bad name"

ps I see we are back to Filomena R was a slob who perjured herself to cover it up.
 
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In reading the last multitude of posts here, I find scant if any significant references to the here to fore revered and repeatedly regurgitated Blogger extraordinaire, Mister Sfarzo.

Have all his acolytes here gotten off their knees in his presence, turned their backs and closed their ears as a sign of revolt ?

Could this possibly be because in his characteristically no holds barred style, he has just exposed one of the most prolific FOAKers who has his own copycat Forum and book, as being 'confused', as well as coming to several other 'less than complimentary' conclusions about that individual and his rants?

Or maybe because Mister Sfarzo also just declared that Ms Stefanoni does not really deserve all the tired talking point vitriol laced criticisms endlessly directed at her by FOAKer Groupies.

This last one particularly hits close to home here, does it not ??
Is that why he has been strangely absent of mention here today ?

Disclaimers to minimize trivial rebuttal:

Mr Sfarzo often says things I disagree with, and I personally can still pass in front of him (and Candace) without genuflecting.
But to his credit he often provokes thought, and sometimes reconsideration on my part.(Candace does not)

The above opinions are from my reading his replies to the newest of the 215 comments to his 6apr issue.
My opinions and interpretations are in no way proffered as 'reading Mr Sfarzo's mind' nor are they verbatim quotes.
But they are "the best truths I could think of".

Hi Stint,
Can you please explain to me how I am confused? If you read my exchange with Frank you will see that I am not confused at all. Maybe I am confused about not being confused. Could you please elaborate on your comments?
 
And as Dr. Hibbert in the Simpsons puts it - "And hillbillies want to be called 'Sons of the Soil' , But it ain't gonna happen." :)





Apropos of nothing, he also opines - "We've given the word "mob" a bad name"

ps I see we are back to Filomena R was a slob who perjured herself to cover it up.

Where does she purjure Herself?
 
Should we contrast this with the general consensus (among a certain faction) that Knox could hardly be expected to notice the only functioning lamp in her room was missing for perhaps as long as six days?

Why would we expect Filomena to possess an eidetic recollection of the placement of every item in her room while Knox cannot be expected to notice the absence of a unique furnishing which under most circumstances she would be using on a regular basis?

-------------------------------------------

"Wasn't very forthcoming" is such a loaded expression. It is usually intended to suggest that the person being described is willfully concealing something that they would rather not be revealed.

Was that your intent?

What motive do you believe would prompt Filomena to not be "forthcoming"? What do you think she was trying to conceal?

What does 6 days have to do about it? She wasn't allowed in her room after day 1. So to assume that she should notice the lamp missing after 6 days has no merit, because she wasn't going in her room to notice it missing. Where as Filomena could have easily told the police that she left her room messy or that she kept her dirty clothes on the floor. Yet its obvious that most of those clothes couldn't have come from anywhere but the floor or from outside the room. Since there isn't enough room in her closet to store them all.

She doesn't have to have perfect recollection of every item in her room. Every item in her room wasn't touched. Her Desk, bed, bedside table, wall shelf, wall closet show ZERO signs of being touched. Yet its claimed that Filomenas room was ransacked to stage a burglary. The only thing other than the window that shows signs that it was touched would possibly be the TV. Other than that, the only thing in the room that shows signs of being ransacked is the floor. So for the room to be ransacked would mean whoever ransacked the room only ransacked the floor and nothing else. Which obviously means all that crap on the floor was already there when the window broke. Unless you could show us some pictures of where she could keep all those clothes.

Has Filomena ever claimed her room was ransacked or staged out of curiousity? I'm just wondering not because I would believe her if she said it but because I more curious about what the defense asked her. There has been more than enough pictures shown on this forum that not only shows but proves where not only those clothes but all those purses and bags couldn't have come from. Thats not counting what they allowed Filomena to take from the room that wasn't photograhed. Either way perhaps you could coughed up some photos I haven't seen that would show me where Filomena stored those clothes at.
 
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On the other hand, If Amanda had just spent all night using that lamp to remove every bit of evidence that she and Raffaele were in Meredith's room and then in the morning watched Raffaele try to break down Meredith's door to retrieve the lamp, she most definitely would have known that her lamp was missing from her room. Why wouldn't she mention that it was missing?

Actually the real question is why would she wipe her fingerprints off it and then forget it in Meredith's room.
 
In reading the last multitude of posts here, I find scant if any significant references to the here to fore revered and repeatedly regurgitated Blogger extraordinaire, Mister Sfarzo.

Have all his acolytes here gotten off their knees in his presence, turned their backs and closed their ears as a sign of revolt ?

Could this possibly be because in his characteristically no holds barred style, he has just exposed one of the most prolific FOAKers who has his own copycat Forum and book, as being 'confused', as well as coming to several other 'less than complimentary' conclusions about that individual and his rants?

Or maybe because Mister Sfarzo also just declared that Ms Stefanoni does not really deserve all the tired talking point vitriol laced criticisms endlessly directed at her by FOAKer Groupies.

This last one particularly hits close to home here, does it not ??
Is that why he has been strangely absent of mention here today ?

Disclaimers to minimize trivial rebuttal:

Mr Sfarzo often says things I disagree with, and I personally can still pass in front of him (and Candace) without genuflecting.
But to his credit he often provokes thought, and sometimes reconsideration on my part.(Candace does not)

The above opinions are from my reading his replies to the newest of the 215 comments to his 6apr issue.
My opinions and interpretations are in no way proffered as 'reading Mr Sfarzo's mind' nor are they verbatim quotes.
But they are "the best truths I could think of".


It's probably been absent of mention here today, pilot, because it's 1.) a different blog, and 2.) it's not that important. This is not the first time Frank has laid into the innocence supporters. Looking over the first page of the comments again, I see he has called all of us confused, not just Bruce. :p
 
I have made no such claim. Misrepresenting what I have said does not lend any strength to your arguments. Rather the contrary.


Denial seem to be your game. You deny you make arguments and deny you make claims. If you don't think the lamp was important, why do you go on and on about it?

Amanda simply said that she didn't notice the lamp in her room was missing. It has been shown that this is plausible. And there has been no evidence presented that it is not.
 
What does 6 days have to do about it?

I think quad is being confused. I posted on the CT thread that Amanda had not spent a night or evening in her room for up to 6 days (ever since she met Raffaele) and quad has confusedly transposed this into the lamp being missing for 6 days.
 
Actually the real question is why would she wipe her fingerprints off it and then forget it in Meredith's room.


How is that possible? Wouldn't she need a light source to see where those fingerprints were?
 
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