Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[CoulsdonUK]

Do you not trust Frank's reporting? If so, why not?

EDT
It is also in Murder in Italy, but I do not have a page number.

Halides1

Gosh, did I say I didn’t trust Franks reporting?

Look, it is fair to say that there are a number of sites covering Meredith murder and that each site has a publicly stated position on either side of this case, therefore, the sole reason for me asking for an independent source is to simply try and reduce bias, nothing more.

Think I’ll sign off for the day I am finding this increasingly tiresome.

 

[pilot padron]

pilot padron,

I asked capealadin to discuss Nara's inconsistencies in her testimony, but she has refused. Would you care to give it a try?

The goalpost is firmly anchored by Cape.
The anchors are why you cannot admit that the claims about Nara being deaf and nuts should be given little or no attention, and probably repudiated.
.
When in fact, they are little more than agenda driven deceitfulness from tabloid trash and an attention seeking hanger on enjoying yet another opportunity to spam his personal profit making investigation business.

Nara's testimony is not even in the same state; much less same stadium nor same goal line

Nice try, but forgive me if I choose not to be seduced into unsecuring the crossbar

 

[quadraginta]

Perhaps you need to remember that we are talking about whether or not the break-in was staged, in the context of frequent guilter claims that the lack of glass on the ground below the window is evidence of a staged break-in.

I'm quite happy to admit that out of that context, it is false that zero glass fragments will go backwards when a slow-moving projectile hits a thin glass window. A tiny but non-zero amount of glass will go backwards a few feet (at most).

A rare acquiescence to fact. Grudging, perhaps, but still a step forward.

My congratulations.

I find it quite curious that you have had an amnesia attack about the context of this discussion, because in this post right here you yourself argued that if had Rudy come in through the window he would have swept lots of glass from the sill on to the ground. Did you forget all about that already?

What a puzzling non-sequitur. I never claimed that it would be inevitable that glass from blow-back due to smashing the window would be found below the window. I only pointed out that your absurd assertion that it was impossible was patently false, as well as having already been shown to be such ... which was really the most offensive aspect of your attempt at reinvention of reality.

The pile of glass left on the sill only adds to the likelihood that something about that scene was not kosher. To my mind a far more telling addition.

That's the guilter claim under discussion here and you ought to remember it seeing as you argued for exactly that talking point yourself at some length. Oh well. Human memory is a funny thing.

Yes, it is. Perhaps you are conflating "exactly" what I argued with what someone else did. Maybe one of these "guilters" you obsess so much about.

Maybe not. "Human memory is a funny thing." More so when it is colored by preconceptions.

All sorts of things can appear to be the case with sufficient personal bias and amnesia. It doesn't mean they are the case.

Marvelous observation. Write it down on a Post-It note and stick it to your mirror. In view of recent history it might be more appropriate there.

Correct me if I'm wrong here

You're wrong here.

but it really does seem like you have given up entirely on arguing the case that the verdict against Amanda and Raffaele was correct.

Still wrong. Keep trying. Maybe you'll stumble across something by accident. Even a broken clock can be right once or twice a day.

It looks to me like you have admitted to yourself on some level that we were absolutely right all along, and you are now trying to find solace in relatively feeble attempts to prove that we were right for the wrong reasons, or that we aren't entitled to quite as much certainty in our rightness as we think we are.

It looks to me like you continue to be frustrated by your inability to cram me into one of your limited collection of compulsively shaped pigeonholes. I'm sorry I can't help you with that shortcoming.

Perhaps you might expand your collection, or at least resist the urge to try and fit everything into one of them.

 

[pilot padron]

Why care

I haven't read what Frank wrote, so I probably shouldn't get into this, but I am curious. Why do you care more about how Nara is portrayed in the media than about how Amanda was portrayed in the media?

Uhhhh.....

Mary, just maybe.... because:

1) Amanda Knox has been unanimously convicted of a horrific murder, and

Nara is just a 'lil ol lady trying to do her civic duty being savagely ridiculed for little more than just being a responsible citizen

2) Amanda Knox has a HUGE professional Public Relation$$$ effort to convince everyone everywhere she is a nice person.
Amanda also has as well an elaborate Army of individuals who choose for various reasons to expend extraordinary efforts on her behalf.
Amanda has a relatively large and *very* pro active family unit

Nara has apparently one relative to help her through her sunset years.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Halides1

Gosh, did I say I didn’t trust Franks reporting?

Look, it is fair to say that there are a number of sites covering Meredith murder and that each site has a publicly stated position on either side of this case, therefore, the sole reason for me asking for an independent source is to simply try and reduce bias, nothing more.

Think I’ll sign off for the day I am finding this increasingly tiresome.

CoulsdonUK,

You asked for a second citation, and I gave one. When you come back, I hope you choose to discuss Dr. Giobbi's statement.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

PR firms

Uhhhh.....

Mary, just maybe.... because:

1) Amanda Knox has been unanimously convicted of a horrific murder, and

Nara is just a 'lil ol lady trying to do her civic duty being savagely ridiculed for little more than just being a responsible citizen

2) Amanda Knox has a HUGE professional Public Relation$$$ effort to convince everyone everywhere she is a nice person.
Amanda also has as well an elaborate Army of individuals who choose for various reasons to expend extraordinary efforts on her behalf.
Amanda has a relatively large and *very* pro active family unit

Nara has apparently one relative to help her through her sunset years.

pilot padron,

How much money has Amanda's family paid toward public relations? In other words, what does $$$ really mean? You may be aware that the some of the Duke lacrosse team hired a PR firm. Does that make them guilty? I think it makes them sensible.

 

[Kaosium]

I guess we’ll find out later this month when the trial starts, it does appear that the authorities are taking legal action on any form of wrong doing and leaving it to the courts to decide, again I doubt that this is unusual in Italy.

According to Frank it breaks all records.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

flea flicker

The goalpost is firmly anchored by Cape.
The anchors are why you cannot admit that the claims about Nara being deaf and nuts should be given little or no attention, and probably repudiated.
.
When in fact, they are little more than agenda driven deceitfulness from tabloid trash and an attention seeking hanger on enjoying yet another opportunity to spam his personal profit making investigation business.

Nara's testimony is not even in the same state; much less same stadium nor same goal line

Nice try, but forgive me if I choose not to be seduced into unsecuring the crossbar

Pilot Padron,

Someone moved the goal posts from the question of whether or not there were sources to which sources were more reliable. Nara's testimony was not entirely accurate, according to Massei and others. One can reasonably ask whether her errors were simply due to an imperfect memory or were due to some more serious problem. I don't have the answer, but I think it is a decent enough question.

The Machine suggested at PMF that Amanda should be incarcerated past the time of completion of her sentence (possibly for life) on the basis of mental health. No one who knows Knox or Sollecito personally has suggested that they are mentally ill, to the best of my knowledge. Quite the contrary, based on everything I have read. If capealadin (and it would seem you also) think that personal knowledge of Nara is enough to determine that they are mentally fit, then this same criterion surely applies to Amanda, whose friends and family have known her far longer than Frank has known Nara. I suggest that you and/or capealadin go to PMF and let them know. My knowledge of football does not extend beyond the old flea flicker play, but perhaps capealadin could run interference for you.

 

[Kaosium]

Raffaele and Amanda were out eating pizza I think, Raffaele got a call from the police asking him to come in to clear up a few points from his statement, Amanda decided to go with him. During Raffaele’s interview he changed his previous statement; in the mean time the police took advantage of the situation presented to them and started speaking to Amanda.

The man running the interrogation, Giobbi, said he was 'mathematically certain' he ordered them both in. There were also twelve extra police officers on duty in the middle of the night, on a weeknight. Do you suppose that was a coincidence?

 

[pilot padron]

a follower or tag teammate volunteer

Pilot Padron,

Someone moved the goal posts from the question of whether or not there were sources to which sources were more reliable. Nara's testimony was not entirely accurate, according to Massei and others. One can reasonably ask whether her errors were simply due to an imperfect memory or were due to some more serious problem. I don't have the answer, but I think it is a decent enough question.

The Machine suggested at PMF that Amanda should be incarcerated past the time of completion of her sentence (possibly for life) on the basis of mental health. No one who knows Knox or Sollecito personally has suggested that they are mentally ill, to the best of my knowledge. Quite the contrary, based on everything I have read. If capealadin (and it would seem you also) think that personal knowledge of Nara is enough to determine that they are mentally fit, then this same criterion surely applies to Amanda, whose friends and family have known her far longer than Frank has known Nara. I suggest that you and/or capealadin go to PMF and let them know. My knowledge of football does not extend beyond the old flea flicker play, but perhaps capealadin could run interference for you.

Interesting points, well stated.

But now the 'nuts and deaf' positioning of the poles is moved yet again from testimony to deficiencies in her memory and 'other serious problems'

Although I do not necessarily agree with the reason that *you tell me* Machine used, I would submit that there always is the possibility (admittedly remote) that the Appeal might just end up with what the Prosecution wants.
Same result but different reason

I find it reasonable to accept the fact that one who senselessly murders another just might be assumed to be in something less than perfect mental health.
In fact is not this the most used defense ?

If Cape can out run, out maneuver, and out class and the competition the way she did here yesterday...forgive me for being perfectly willing to follow her *anywhere*

ETA:
I have no idea 'how much' money it costs' to contract a very active, very high profile PR firm, for very large number of participatory endeavors, over a very long period of time.

My $$$ was simply an indication that the costs probably were not small

If '$$$' can be shown to be as excessive/erroneous on my part, I readily concede to your or Wilkes's forthcoming factual figures.

 

[Matthew Best]

The anchors are why you cannot admit that the claims about Nara being deaf and nuts should be given little or no attention, and probably repudiated.
.
When in fact, they are little more than agenda driven deceitfulness from tabloid trash and an attention seeking hanger on enjoying yet another opportunity to spam his personal profit making investigation business.

Presumably the "tabloid trash" is Oggi, but who is this hanger-on with an investigation business?

 

[Kaosium]

If you went thru all those threads, then you are aware that Gogerty brags on their web page:
"We then develop and implement a plan; usually integrating a range of tactics such as earned and paid media...",

Since Franks blatherings qualify as 'media', and he is one of the loudest and longest saying what precisely Marriott wants said, I find it perfectly understandable (and not sinister nor conspiratorial) that *some* might *suspect* that Frank was paid by Marriott.

I went back to beginning of Frank's blog and I found that to be a very strange claim. It seemed apparent to me that Frank's initial interest in the case was justice for Meredith Kercher, and only during the course of the 'investigation' and subsequent trial did he start to wonder and then become convinced that there was something very wrong in the prosecution of Raffaele ('Daddy's Boy') and Amanda Knox. ('Foxy Knoxy')

Going back there you can also see...familiar...monikers such as 'Skeptical Bystander' and 'Michael' who defended Frank--until he started to change his mind as the facts came in. To make the claim that Frank changed his mind because he all of a sudden started receiving a paycheck is not something I found supportable in his archives, and in fact served to cast doubt on the perception of the ones making the claim.

Certainly more understandable than clinging to an unsupported drama shock statement in a tabloid, backed up with hearsay from an attention seeking charlatan previously caught in innumerable 'overstatements'... that an elderly citizen who happens to have said things that are injurious to a unanimously convicted murderess....is nuts and deaf.

He also might be the single person most responsible for ending the implementation of the death penalty in Illinois. As for his style, well, you put it well with the 'spaghetti dinner' description you posted yesterday and cracked me up. Yes, some Chicagoeans act like that, I know from experience.

PS
We can agree that if Cape's skills at moving a football in any way are comparable to her destructive dismemberment of the 'lets make up some sinister stuff about Nara' cabal; Chicagoland beware

LOL! BTW, how did Halides1 of all people get blamed for this? I can't recall him ever saying much of anything about Nara, it's like you have him mixed up with Withnail1969 or something.

 

[pilot padron]

Presumably the "tabloid trash" is Oggi, but who is this hanger-on with an investigation business?

http://www.pjcinvestigations.com/

Short and sweet (like your insightful and often quite witty input here)

 

[Chris_Halkides]

what did they do?

ETA:
I have no idea 'how much' money it costs' to contract a very active, very high profile PR firm, for very large number of participatory endeavors, over a very long period of time.

Pilot padron,

To which participatory endeavors do you refer? In other words, what did the PR firm do?

 

[Matthew Best]

http://www.pjcinvestigations.com/

Short and sweet (like your insightful and often quite witty input here)

Careful pilot. You will ruin this thread's reputation for unpleasantness and insults.

 

[Amazer]

"Working with stone". That sounds quite vague. I wonder why.

If you must know... hands-on involvement in the making of monumental stones. Supervising the production of garden materials made of either granite, sandstone or limestone (benches, fountains, garden tiles, etc.). Selecting rough blocks from quaries. That specific enough for you?

 

[LondonJohn]

If you must know... hands-on involvement in the making of monumental stones. Supervising the production of garden materials made of either granite, sandstone or limestone (benches, fountains, garden tiles, etc.). Selecting rough blocks from quaries. That specific enough for you?

So, not throwing rocks through thin plate glass window panes with interior shutters, and observing where they land on the inside of the window, then....?

 

[Amazer]

I'm not at all surprised that you failed to respond to this perfectly valid question, no.

What's valid about it? You don't think that someone with more then a little bit of knowledge about stone and it's properties can work out where it most certainly wouldn't land? Or do you believe that having experience with throwing rocks through windows is a prerequisite for making that determination?

 

[LondonJohn]

Pilot padron,

To which participatory endeavors do you refer? In other words, what did the PR firm do?

I do love this insistence by so many on the "guilt" side of the debate that there's lots of money being spent by the Knox/Mellas families on various PR activities.

As far as I can see, the Knox-based PR effort has been limited to David Marriott offering his services to the family to manage media appearances. This is also entirely understandable: the US TV networks (and, to a lesser extent, print media and UK media) were inundating the family with requests for appearances/quotes. Of course, this bombardment grew especially large while the first trial was ongoing, reaching a crescendo around the time of the first verdict.

I would imagine that the Knox/Mellas families' first priority would be to focus on Amanda and the trial/aftermath: they therefore didn't want to have to spend hours and hours on the phone/email to media outlets, arranging appearances etc. It's therefore entirely logical that they would have accepted Marriott's help, especially as he is plugged into the network TV industry. IIIRC, Marriott also gave a little general PR advice to the family.

It seems to me to be a huge leap of logic to jump from this situation (which is readily admitted and publicised by both Marriott and the family), to an assumption that Gogerty Marriott is providing its full range of services to the family. A lazy read-across from the Gogerty Marriott website has managed to convince some (who seem to have poorly-developed critical faculties) that all sorts of paid PR shenanigans are ongoing.

I still chuckle when I remember when the latest theory was that many of us on the side of wrongful conviction were actually paid bloggers, under the command of David Marriott.

 

[pilot padron]

Pilot padron,

To which participatory endeavors do you refer? In other words, what did the PR firm do?

Public Relations professionals are masters of their craft which includes proffering not only absolutely perfect combination of words at the precise opportune time, but also saying absolutely nothing at other inopportune times.

The only public acknowledgement of specific endeavors that the PR peeps publicly admit to performing is taken from their webpage.
http://www.gogertymarriott.com/showcase

Again, contemplate even those few carefully crafted, minutely massaged, purposely parsed words from that site.

1) Marriott acknowledges endeavors about 'managing media requests to the family
A) Barbie Nadeau and others stated that any and all access to the Family was indeed very 'managed'
B) Any reasonable person watching the *multitude* of US media presentations from the 'Curt Edda and Amanda Forever' series on morning mom TV can also see the 'managing' definitely includes what may and may not be asked of the Family.

This single admitted area of 'endeavors' over a couple years, with scores of professional involvements each year does not come cheap.

2) Furthermore, read between the lines of the self aggrandizing website of the PR Firm that includes a picture of Amanda on their "showcase' page citing areas of
A) 'Crisis communications' and bragging about it as a recent 'campaign'.
B) Marriott Showcases professional PR 'endeavors' on the scale of *campaigns, communicating about Amanda's crisis since Nov 2007*.

Campaigns on this scale and duration are 'endeavors that do not come cheap

You know, certainly that this topic has been endlessly bantered here in great detail.

All I am postulating is that the PR endeavors have not been small, and if not pro bono for the Seattle Rotary Good Old Boy group, costs could be in high six figure range ..at least.

That assertion IMHO is a lot easier to defend than refusing to admit the lack of credibility in claims that Nara is nuts and deaf solely because Oggi said it and Ciolino *says* he heard someone else say it.

With that in mind, I submit this answer because it seems to be such a fetish here if questions are ignored, and such unwarranted winner mentality conclusions are drawn from not answering.

I choose not to enter into a debate about Public Relation endeavors anywhere approximating what went on yesterday about Nara, and have little more to add about Gogerty Marriott.

In closing, If your compatriot here, Wilkes, chooses to let you peek at the Full House or better of cards he holds so closely to his chest, that he was dealt and is still drawing directly from the family, may I suggest if you really seek answers, that you direct further questions about PR to him.

And please do share any 'answers' Wilkes bestows upon you with us, the unwashed masses.