"Natural selection is the only mechanism of adaptive evolution"

truethat, do you honestly believe you invented the term?

You are aware that it's possible for two unrelated people to invent the same thing independently, right ?

Anything and everything I am arguing is based on actual science

Considering the fact that you obviously don't understand the first thing about science, I think it's safe to say that your statement here doesn't weigh much.

So if scientists knew in the 80s and 90s and earlier that haeckel was a fraud, why did they keep saying otherwise?

It's not science's fault if creationists don't keep up.

The thing is creationists and IDers had shown this for a very long time.

I wonder what else they know, but then they'd have to publish some actual science in order for that to happen.
 
Like I have said over and over again, Grassé's views are irrelevant, as they are from before genetics were properly understood, and thus are based on only a (small) subset of the available data.

But that's why creationists like such people so much. Recent knowledge is better adapted to the data we have, and harder to understand. Like I'm sure people arguing against psychology will quote old-man Freud, theists will go as far back as Lamarck for support if you give them the chance.
 
I will try to be less facetious in the future.



Hang on! That's not a niche! Consequently, the following is a pointless discussion, as it is based on this misunderstanding of what a niche is:





You are certainly correct in that there is no environmental reason for them not to have done so, but you are forgetting the main theme of my previous post, which is that there is also no reason -- environmental or evolutionary -- for them to actually do so either.

You might simplistically see a niche as a particular set of obstacles or problems occurring naturally, which separates an organism seeking nutrients and energy from sources of one or both. These obstacles can typically be overcome in a variety of ways, and many of these ways are distinctly different.

Two already very different organisms that seek to overcome these obstacles are likely to utilize different methods to do so. This, as I outlined above, is at least partly for long-term historical reasons, that is, for reasons associated with the organisms' present morphology and biochemistry (for instance) prior to the utilization of this particular niche. You may see this as every organism having a particular set of tools -- some blunt, some already quite refined -- with which they will attempt to overcome these obstacles.

Given that the organisms initially have a very different -- perhaps non-overlapping -- set of tools, there is no general reason to assume that the solution both organisms have to overcoming the obstacles of this particular niche at a given future time will be identical, either on a macroscopic level or on a biochemical level. The typical prediction, from the viewpoint of evolutionary theory, would be that if two organisms seek to utilize the same niche, they will at a given time use a different set of tools, and the selection of tools they use will be influenced by the set of tools they had in a previous stage before this particular niche was explored by them.

In the present case, this means that a fish and a bacterium, when exploring the same niche at any given time when both lifeforms existed, the fish approached the obstacles with the tools inherent in a fish, whereas the bacterium approached it with the tools inherent in a bacterium. Therefore, unless the niche itself demands that only the tools of the fish can overcome the obstacle, there is no reason for the bacterium to adopt the tools of the fish, and become fishlike.

The reverse is not as clear-cut, of course, as there are so many cases where eukaryotes have formed a mutualistic relationship with a bacterium in order to overcome a certain obstacle. However, even in these cases, the bacterium never becomes fishlike, and the fish never becomes bacterium-like, and there is no reason, in evolutionary theory, for us to think that this will ever realistically be the case.

Meanwhile, in Davison-land, both the bacterium and the fish have the same set of tools, and thus could overcome these obstacles in the same way. Therefore, under Davison's theory, we would expect there to be cases where a bacterium had evolved into something resembling a fish, or even vice-versa.

The lack of cases where a bacterium has evolved into a fish meets the expectations of evolutionary theory -- that such cases should be exceedingly rare, if not nonexistent -- whereas it is hard evidence against the expectations of Davison's theory -- that such cases should be commonplace, or at least not rare.

I hope that putting the whole matter in layman's terms will not dissuade you from reading it. While such a strategy is prone to misunderstandings due to the impreciseness of analogies, it is sometimes necessary to fall back on them; this is certainly the case before the first cup of tea in the morning.



Like I have said over and over again, Grassé's views are irrelevant, as they are from before genetics were properly understood, and thus are based on only a (small) subset of the available data.



I am not an expert in fossil mammals, but I believe they were beach-living organisms that gradually abandoned the beach for a more marine lifestyle, for which they were eventually so well adapted that people who know little of the fossil evidence now find it hard to believe they were ever anything else.

The rest of your post is essentially a repetition of the points cited above.



Having only read a small part of the available literature, I must say that I am not aware of a test of this particular claim. However, that does not mean that we cannot perform such a test here and now.

My claim is:
"[T]he probability of two taxa to evolve into a sufficiently similar morphology decreases with the phylogenetic distance between these taxa."

A possible protocol for testing this would be to first select a number of pairs of taxa and, after having agreed on a (necessarily arbitrary) scheme of determining how well the specific pairs fit the label "sufficiently similar morphology", which I agree is vague, look for morphological and genetic data to build a matrix. We can then analyze it through normal phylogenetic methods, and thereby get an estimate of relatedness.

Given a large data set, I predict that the probability that two organisms will be "sufficiently similar" is proportional to their distance in the tree. I suggest using either only animals or only plants (or only a subtaxon within eithe), as that will give us an easy way to root the tree. I suggest further that we settle on a given gene, preferably nuclear, and discard all taxa for which we cannot find this gene. The most common gene used, the barcoding COI gene, is unfortunately mitochondrial, and will likely not give us any kind of useful resolution, so this may mean that the original data set has to be quite large.

After you have commented on this protocol, and removed as many of my biases as you can find and amended it as you see fit, we can proceed. I volunteer to do the phylogenetic analyses, and can do them according to parsimony, maximum likelihood, bayesian inference, or whatever scheme you prefer. This is likely to take some time and some effort, why I will rely on you to provide me with a list of taxon pairs for consideration. Preferably, we'd need about 2-300 of them, as many will be discarded due to lack of DNA data. The data set should ideally contain pairs which you feel are "sufficiently similar" and pairs you feel are not. I will amend this list after having received it, until we have a list of pairs we can both agree are representative. How you chose your pairs is entirely up to you; I will assume no bias from your end.

Today I will be somewhat busy at work, but feel free to present your taxon pairs whenever is suitable for you, either in this thread or through a PM.



None of these examples are niches, nor, for that matter, taxa which are very similar, which would disqualify them even if "occupying intestinal tracts" was a niche.



Yes, of course. But having whales in the oceans would severely limit the probability that a second taxon would succeed in filling what might clumsily be termed the "whale niche".



I see no reason not to accept that, as whales are undoubtedly mammals. Their closest living relative is the Hippo, and the closest living relative of these two together are the various even-toed ungulates, and then the odd-toed ungulates. All of these taxa are mammals; I accept this without qualifications.



"Aquatic life" is not a niche. Certainly the whales evolved because there was food to be had in the oceans, but if there had already been organisms occupying the "whale niche" in the oceans, whales would likely not have evolved to fill it. They didn't, for instance, while there were still plesiosaurs, pliosaurs, and other giant marine reptiles.



I certainly accept my part of the responsibility for prompting you to use "niche" imprecisely -- I go even further in this post! -- but I do not accept that I have knowingly implied that "aquatic life" is a niche which can only be occupied by one organism at a time. If I have, I apologise, and hope that you will now be able to return to using "niche" in a more proper sense.

Thanks Kotatsu!
 
No, that is not correct. The argument is that in some cases, a land mammal has been found to have occupied an aquatic niche ahead of already existing aquatic animals. This could be for a variety of reasons, but getting there first is certainly good enough for our purposes.

In addition, it may very well be that both groups initially attempted to occupy that niche, so that for a period there were both whales, fishes, and shark occupying the "same niche", but in different seas. If these then came in contact with each other, the efficiency with which these taxa were able to utilize the food sources available, to fend of predators and parasites, and so on, could very well have meant that the most novel occupant of the niche -- in this case the whale -- would be statistically more likely to gradually develop into the primary occupant of the niche. I am not saying that this is necessarily so, but this could certainly be a factor.

I am no expert in marine vertebrates, but I do work with parasites. I find it quite likely that sharks at this time had parasites that were adapted to the life of their hosts, as did fishes. Above all, these parasites would have been adapted to a life on (or in) an aquatic host. Merely changing size and other features to fit into the "whale-like creature niche" would therefore not get rid of the parasites, as they would, essentially, just get more shark to live on.

The whales, meanwhile, are likely to have had parasites that were adapted to a host that lived on land. If the whales start spending more and more time in the water, and eventually adopt a wholly aquatic life-style, it is not certain that the parasites would be able to adapt to this radical change in their host's environment.

We can just look at the distribution of lice in mammals (they don't exist on fish or sharks at all, but these, I understand, have other parasites, such as copepods). Most terrestrial mammals have sucking and/or chewing lice. They are missing in some groups with an extraordinary external morphology, such as pangolins, and -- oddly -- in bats (which make up approximately 1/4th of all extant mammals). In seals, there are some lice, but these are quite divergent from other lice in their morphology, as they have to cope with a host that spends most of its time in water. For example, they have special structures that allow their trachea to remain water-free when the seal dives. In whales, which spend all their time in the water, we find no lice at all.

Thus, assuming that the terrestrial ancestor of whales had lice -- and we have reason to assume this, as lice seem to be well distributed across most large terrestrial mammal orders -- these may initially have evolved in parallel with those on seals when the whale ancestors still remained on land for at least some time. However, when the whales went completely aquatic, they became extinct (as there are none today; however, they could have become extinct prior to this switch in lifestyle, or even after it). As many of these lice would have been blood-sucking, it is reasonable to assume that that particular detrimental selection pressure would have been lifted, at least temporarily, while similar pressures still existed on sharks and fish. Of course, new parasites may have occupied the whales after this, but initially, they may have been relatively parasite-free, which could have given them enough of a head start to successfully occupy the niche ahead of the already marine groups.

It should be noted that this is just an example. There is only one known fossil louse, and that is from a bird. Of course we may find more fossil lice in the future, but it is not at all certain that we would find those occupying the ancestors of whales. The above is thus a hypothesis which may potentially be tested in the future, but which cannot be tested with the present data.



This is also an excellent explanation. Likely, the full picture is much more complex than any that have been presented here, or even a combination of all of them.



This is so bizarre. When do you believe the mammals evolved?



It was previously occupied by other organisms, such as plesiosaurs, pliosaurs, and marine crocodiles. All these groups are adequately described in the literature, and I refer you there. As these groups became extinct, other organism filled the "holes" they left behind. For a time, at least, you might say that it actually was waiting to be filled, because there was sufficiently large amounts of nutrients and energy at the top of the food pyramid (to use an inaccurate but appropriate analogy) for a viable population of predators one step higher to evolve.



Because back then the "whale nice" was already occupied by organisms that subsequently became extinct. I can clearly see that this has been pointed out to you several times over the last few pages, so you certainly cannot honestly claim ignorance of this.

I am no paleontologist, but from what I know -- and I am sure Dinwar or someone who is actually more well-read in paleontology than I am can correct me -- the "whale niche" was occupied by plesiosaurs, pliosaurs and similar marine reptiles before the whales evolved. Before that, it was occupied by marine crocodiles. Before that, I would guess it was occupied by older forms of sharks, and before that by placodermids or something, but back then there would have been no mammals to compete with them anyway.

This is, of course, using the term "niche" in a highly peculiar way, but as you are no stranger to a certain laxity in scientific terminology, I am sure you will forgive me for being this crude.



No, you have claimed that that is so; that is not the same as showing it.

Also, I have presented you with a protocol for testing my claim. I take it from your quote above that you are not at all interested in providing a set of taxon pairs. Will you be comfortable if I do it myself (though an help is, of course, welcome, regardless of its source), or would you feel that would inevitably introduce too much bias? Are there any steps in the test you wish to refine or change? Otherwise, I could start drawing up a set of taxon pairs this weekend.

Lastly, would you agree that the test I propose would actually test my claim? I drew the test up before having had breakfast this morning, and I am not at all certain that it would actually test what I claim it tests, so insights into this would be much appreciated.

Thanks again!
 
Richardson paper from 1997:



So if they knew the data was faked, why were evos in the field still relying on it in 1997?

Why did they continue to put the faked data into textbooks?

Which scientists relied on it and for what science?


textbooks are made by publishing houses like Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. They are not made by scientists. The drawings are also part of way evolutionary theory was thought of early on. The same way the early depictions of dinosaurs were done with T rexes walking around like
Godzilla.


What kind of education do you have?
 
According to randman, a hole doesn't exist until some puddle fills it:
What whale niche? It didn't exist. It wasn't there waiting to be filled. There wasn't some predetermined slot waiting to be filled....or was there?


After several pages of niche-denial, randman explains the semantic basis of his argument:
As far as your claim, thanks for admitting you know of no studies showing it to be true. It is up to you to provide evidence for it. I have shown that different taxa can occupy a similar slot, if you would. Niche is a bad term because technically, a niche only exists once something fills it.


To paraphrase randman's argument, he's right because his opponents have been saying "niche" instead of "slot".

That's a simplification, of course. I failed to mention other nonsense.
 
He's trying to set up the argument to suggest that "something needed to be filled" so that he can steer the direction towards "Intelligent plan"


Maybe I'm wrong but I think this is looking at evolution backwards. Animals do not evolve in a vacuum. An ecosystem evolves and this plays out in an organic way. Long term changes to the environment creates different ecosystems, so do sudden changes.

The way the conversation has been going is looking at it as it is NOW and then figuring out how it got that way.

This is why it looks like a plan randman. You know what the end result is.

All you have demonstrated as far as intelligence goes, is the intelligence of man in figuring out the way it unfolded.

This is not the same thing as Intelligent design.
 
Also, I have presented you with a protocol for testing my claim. I take it from your quote above that you are not at all interested in providing a set of taxon pairs. Will you be comfortable if I do it myself (though an help is, of course, welcome, regardless of its source), or would you feel that would inevitably introduce too much bias? Are there any steps in the test you wish to refine or change? Otherwise, I could start drawing up a set of taxon pairs this weekend.

Lastly, would you agree that the test I propose would actually test my claim? I drew the test up before having had breakfast this morning, and I am not at all certain that it would actually test what I claim it tests, so insights into this would be much appreciated.

Good luck with getting randman to even acknowledge this part of your posts. And you know that, even if he does, he'll post something utterly irrelevant, claim that it is the same thing as answering you, call you stupid and uninformed and, if pressed, abandon the thread all together.
 
But that's why creationists like such people so much. Recent knowledge is better adapted to the data we have, and harder to understand. Like I'm sure people arguing against psychology will quote old-man Freud, theists will go as far back as Lamarck for support if you give them the chance.

Why not further? We still (basically) use Linnaeus' system, so why isn't his 18th century viewpoint as valid as Lamarcks, or Grassé's, or anyone else who didn't have the data we have today?

Good luck with getting randman to even acknowledge this part of your posts. And you know that, even if he does, he'll post something utterly irrelevant, claim that it is the same thing as answering you, call you stupid and uninformed and, if pressed, abandon the thread all together.

Well, if he doesn't agree to the test (as with the other challenges I have proposed), the "worst" that happens is that I don't have to do a lot of work. If he does actually agree to go through with any of them, this is likely to give me a greater understanding of the matter, regardless of the outcome. In neither case do I actually lose anything but time.

ETA:
I also note that there is a lot of talk about being on randman's ignore list, and I would like to tank you, randman, for not putting me there. If nothing else, it shows that you certainly don't do what some of your critics claim, that is, put everyone who disagree with your viewpoint on ignore. On a personal level, I really do enjoy this kind of discussion, as it allows me to do exactly what you urge people to do all the time: look into what is actually claimed by various people, and what data and theory actually does say. I fully agree in and approve of your appeal that people do so.
 
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I meant to ask, Kotatsu, you said that bats make up nearly 25% of extant mammals. Is that as counted by number of species?
 
Citaion please, randman
What percentage of evos where surprised in 1977 when that already known to be fake drawings were shown to be even more fake?


I take you coined the word evo to mean "intelligent person"
 
I meant to ask, Kotatsu, you said that bats make up nearly 25% of extant mammals. Is that as counted by number of species?

Yes, that is what I heard. I haven't looked it up, though. I am guessing they make up a pretty high percentage when you count individuals as well, though perhaps not 25%.
 
Yes, that is what I heard. I haven't looked it up, though.

Well, I looked on google and found similar figures given, but nobody seemed to explain how that figure was counted.

I am guessing they make up a pretty high percentage when you count individuals as well, though perhaps not 25%.

Really? I was under the understanding that bats weren't all that common. I'd certainly have thought that, say, rats made up a much higher percentage of the mammal population by count of individuals.
 
Well, I looked on google and found similar figures given, but nobody seemed to explain how that figure was counted.

TheMammal Species of the World checklist (1) lists 5419 species of mammals, of which 1116 are bats, which puts the percentage at approximately 20.5%, so it seems my source (and I cannot remember what the original source for this was) was slightly mistaken. 2277, or just above 42%, are rodents. Soricomorpha+Erinaceomorpha is third, I think, at about 8%, and primates come in fourth at just below 7%.

Really? I was under the understanding that bats weren't all that common.

I base my assertion only on personal experience, and have visited some quite bat-rich places when traveling abroad, so I am probably very biased.

I'd certainly have thought that, say, rats made up a much higher percentage of the mammal population by count of individuals.

This is undoubtedly correct (see above).

---
(1) Isn't it wonderful when you can download a list like this? When you can just tell Google to find a list of all mammals in the world, and it does exactly that? I love it.
 
TheMammal Species of the World checklist (1) lists 5419 species of mammals, of which 1116 are bats, which puts the percentage at approximately 20.5%, so it seems my source (and I cannot remember what the original source for this was) was slightly mistaken. 2277, or just above 42%, are rodents. Soricomorpha+Erinaceomorpha is third, I think, at about 8%, and primates come in fourth at just below 7%.

That's cool, thanks.

(1) Isn't it wonderful when you can download a list like this? When you can just tell Google to find a list of all mammals in the world, and it does exactly that? I love it.

Yes it is.
 
There have been LOTS of posts made to this thread, since I last chimed in. And, I don't have time to read through all of them. So, forgive me if the following has already been pointed out to you:

The truth is most of you had never heard a lot of these arguments.
Maybe, maybe not. But, none of them challenge evolution, so far. So, what's the point?

Here's an argument I bet you never heard before:

"Back in 1701, several experts stated that automatic, horseless carriages would be impossible. Therefore, even today, you can't say that cars and trucks truly exist."

YOU probably NEVER heard that before, did you? By your own logic, that means you NEVER ciritically thought about the mere existence of automobiles, did you?! You just assumed they exist!!!

If you do not assume darwinism, why does the data really suggest, for example?
If you think the data suggests something other than a natural, Darwinistic process, could you please tell us what that is.... and more importantly: What more we can learn, about biology, from this alternative suggestion?

If you want to answer that one in a separate thread, go ahead.

But, it should be clear to you that your arguments are NOT detrimental to Darwinism, yet. So, the only way out is to make your alternative a spectacular one!
 
randman said:
If you do not assume darwinism, why does the data really suggest, for example?
Considering the fact that every biologist prior to, oh, let's say 1700 to be safe was a Creationist (a few had doubts, and many after 1700 had SERIOUS doubts, but there wasn't a competing theory) and Darwin convinced pretty much the entire scientific world, I'd say the data suggests natural evolutionary processes. The better data we have now only supports this conclusion.
 
There have been LOTS of posts made to this thread, since I last chimed in. And, I don't have time to read through all of them. So, forgive me if the following has already been pointed out to you:

I think it's safe to say that everything was pointed out to him, bagger ;)

So, the only way out is to make your alternative a spectacular one!

Understatement of the year award 2011.
 
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Then why is it still in textbooks?

Richardson himself told you why. You even quoted him.

Gould was a rather extreme anti-Haeckelist, and his views about the complete excision of Haeckel from everything are not shared by other scientists (such as Richardson himself).

Why did Gould say in 2000 it was still widespread and he knew of at least 50 textbooks still using Haeckel?

Gould didn't say that, actually. The fact that you say that is how I know you didn't bother to read any of the original papers and essays, and instead just cut and paste what Creationist websites say they said.

As for what Richardson's 1997 paper said, the clue to what his problem with Haeckel was came in the title of the paper itself: Richardson was complaining specifically about the use of the drawings to show the conserved phylotypic stage as compared across embryos. He was well aware that there were plenty of in-depth studies of individual animal embryos (his 1997 paper is packed to the gill arches with cites to them). What he was complaining about was the use of Haeckel for cross-species comparison because there were so few similar studies, and lamenting the fact that the lack of such comparisons throughout embryologic history was too limiting.

Thus, more than a century after von Baer’s (1828) pioneering work in comparative developmental biology, there remains considerable uncertainty over the true extent of morphological variation in vertebrate embryos at the putative phylotypic stage. The debate is hindered by the scarcity of comprehensive comparative studies of vertebrate embryos, and the great practical difficulties in obtaining embryos for study from a wide range of species. Keibel (1906) provided figures, redrawn from published studies, of embryonic development in a wide range of vertebrates. However, with a few notable exceptions (Bellairs 1971) modern textbooks rarely consider species other than the common laboratory animals. There has been no textbook of descriptive comparative embryology in English, covering all the major vertebrate groups, for over 70 years (Jenkinson 1913; Kerr 1919). Huettner’s (1941) book, purporting to be a comparative vertebrate embryology text, is typical of the textbooks available to the modern reader. It only covers Amphioxus, which is not a vertebrate; and the frog, chick and “the mammal”. To compound problems, developmental biologists use just a small number of laboratory species as model systems, and are therefore unfamiliar with the diversity of embryonic form in vertebrates (Hanken 1993; Bolker 1995; Raff 1996).

This, of course, Richardson attributes to the fact that comparative embryology basically was a moribund discipline for almost that entire time period described above: in other words, there was no study after Haeckel, because scientists weren't looking at the same thing Haeckel was (by textbooks, Richardson is referring not to basic high school and college texts, but advanced study texts - for instance, the Huettner book mentioned above, Fundamentals of Comparative Embryology of the Vertebrates, was intended for use by veterinary school students and as a reference manual for "the more advanced worker who wishes to refresh his knowledge." The Ruth Bellairs book, Developmental Processes in Higher Vertebrates, was a graduate-level text for developmental biology students).

It's only after the re-development of the idea of a phylotypic stage within the last 4 years (from the perspective of Richardson writing in 1997) that motivated scientists to look for previous comparative studies, thus re-encountering Haeckel.

The idea of a phylogenetically conserved stage has regained popularity in recent years. It has been claimed that all vertebrate embryos pass through a conserved stage when they are the same size (Collins 1995). Furthermore it has been argued that the existence of a phylotypic stage is consistent with the concept of a universal positional field, whereby the embryos of all species use the same mechanisms to encode positional value (Wolpert 1989). Recent findings of a conserved pattern of developmental gene expression (the zootype) in a wide range of vertebrates support this view (Slack et al. 1993). Furthermore, it has been suggested that the zootype is most clearly expressed at the tailbud stage, and that this in turn corresponds to the conserved stage for vertebrates (Slack et al. 1993). Nevertheless, the idea remains controversial. Richardson (1995) has recently shown that embryonic stages are subjected to shifts in developmental timing during evolution (heterochrony) so that different organs develop at different times in different species. This makes it impossible to define a single conserved stage when all species will have the same body plan.

Strangely, while Richardson's 1995 paper on heterochrony makes a passing allusion to Haeckel's later drawings being inaccurate, he doesn't elaborate, and his 1997 paper focuses solely on Haeckel's 1874 originals.

Am I going have to give another history lesson? Maybe I should post it in the thread on Haeckel and textbooks.
 
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