No Fly zones over Libya?

[angrysoba]

We respect those four because they knew how to be president. They also knew when to use force and when not to use force.

As you know I am not an American and perhaps because of that I have often found Mount Rushmore to be a little... creepy. I mean, carving the faces of presidents into the side of a mountain is just a tad cult-of-personality-esque. We laugh at totalitarian states for the lengths they go to to promote the virtues of their leaders and we would probably consider a mountain with the faces of Marx, Lenin, Stalin and Khruschev carved into it to be a typical example of totalitarian excess. On the other hand, we're not that bothered with Rushmore or, say, a gigantic statue of a glowering Lincoln resting his arms on a pair of fasces.

 

[angrysoba]

Apparently Yasmin Alibai-Brown is confused. I'm not surprised given her tenacious attempts to assimilate contradictory Leftist dogma:

There are the obvious reasons for the hyperactivity around Libya and the concomitant, languid indifference to the agony of people in other places with autocratic rulers. Yemen? Oh, no oil, so why bother? Let the "barbarians" slaughter each other. It's what they do. What about Saudi Arabia, then? As grotesque a regime as you can get. Watch the Newsnight report by Sue Lloyd Roberts tonight on this evil empire which interns its females and decapitates dissidents, which spreads its Islamicist tentacles to Muslims worldwide, including Britain, which has marched into Bahrain to "control" the crowds seeking reform. Ah, but it has much oil and much money to buy our warplanes and guns and mansions in Park Lane.

Arab bloggers are totally sceptical and some furious that the UN and Arab League has validated what is an oil grab by interested, over-armed nations.

The Independent

She's confused because as she understands it:

There are no No-Fly Zones in Yemen because Yemen has no oil.

There are no No-Fly Zones in Saudi Arabia because Saudi Arabia has lots of oil.

There are No-Fly Zones in Lybia because...er....Libya has oil.

You see? I'd be confused too if that was my "understanding" of the situation.

 

[Virus]

The moonbats and crankshafts have come out of the woodwork.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/20/anti-war-protests-libya-air-strikes

"The stench of hypocrisy around this war is unbelievable," said Corbyn.

"This war is about oil, control and a message to the rest of the world and region that we can do it if we want to. I fear we will soon be involved in a ground war, the partition of Libya and the theft of that country's oil and resources."

Like his counterpart George Galloway, Corbyn has links with several designated terrorist organizations and works for the clerical fascist regime in Iran.

Pics here. Note the communist holding a leaflet that says "Hands off Libya. Victory to Gaddafi"

http://www.demotix.com/news/631052/stop-war-coalition-protest-against-attack-libya

 

[angrysoba]

The moonbats and crankshafts have come out of the woodwork.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/20/anti-war-protests-libya-air-strikes



Like his counterpart George Galloway, Corbyn has links with several designated terrorist organizations and works for the clerical fascist regime in Iran.

Pics here. Note the communist holding a leaflet that says "Hands off Libya. Victory to Gaddafi"

http://www.demotix.com/news/631052/stop-war-coalition-protest-against-attack-libya

That guy's a member of the Communist Party of Great Britain - Marxist-Leninist.

http://www.cpgb-ml.org/index.php?secName=statements&subName=display&statementId=39

Strangely, one of those guys looks a dead ringer for George Galloway. I would have thought he was George Galloway were it not for the fact that Galloway has insisted that Gadaffi is a very bad man and that he has not and never will support him for his betrayal of the "Anti-Zionist" cause. Must be just some bloke who looks a lot like him.

Oh, here he is on the news:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk2u-pvOpcc&feature=player_embedded

One of his arguments seems to be:

If you attack Gadaffi he will carry out terrorist attacks. Don't provoke him!

 

[Virus]

The thing I hate about George Galloway, aside from his fat stupid head, is how he says that intervention will "inflame radical Muslims" when he trots off to Syria and Gaza praising jihad and delivering anti-Western diatribes.

 

[JihadJane]

I dunno but maybe revolutionaries pushing towards liberation from its dictators, autocrats, monarchs,oil sheiks, foreign military bases and financiers and from Western control of their resources and political processes., as you so eloquently put.

Maybe?

Don't you think it's important to find out?

Although I'm not sure how you reconcile saying that and using the Islamist Menace in the same post. Or your mention of how the Libyan insurgency was an artificial plant by the western powers.

Why is it necessary misrepresent what I wrote?

So which is it?

Even if your interpretations of my words weren't wildly inaccurate, why should it be a case of either or? (Western covert agencies have frequently collaborated with Islamic militants.) Libya is a complex soup. Now three old white imperial powers have added some more charred corpses for Arabs to contemplate.

 

[angrysoba]

Now three old white imperial powers have added some more charred corpses for Arabs to contemplate.

Partially at the behest of the Arab League and clearly those in Bengahzi, UN-sanctioned airstrikes did indeed kill some of Gadaffi's forces. Would the corpses be any less dead if they had been killed by the rebels? Or would rebel corpses be any more acceptable to you if they had been killed by other Arabs or whatever complexion Gadaffi's mercenaries are?

 

[little grey rabbit]

UN Doublespeak: Ceasefire

9.12am: The Guardian's Chris McGreal is at "what is now the front line", 9km outside Ajdabiya, having travelled with rejuvenated rebel forces from Benghazi. He says rebel forces have gained 150km of ground, and a substantial amount of morale, since coalition air strikes began on Saturday morning.

He says Gaddafi's forces have been driven all the way back to the edge of Ajdabiya – having previously been on the outskirts of Benghazi – but are repelling any further advance by the rebels.

There definitely is continuing resistance. There have been a number of incoming tank rounds from Gaddafi's forces, which suggests that they've still got tanks, they may still have some rockets. But above us now we can hear planes, which we have to assume are coalition planes, and we have heard a number of very deep explosions in the past few minutes which suggests those are attacks by coalition forces, possibly on those same tanks which were shelling us just a few minutes earlier.

So let me get this straight. The UN Security Council demands a ceasefire.

Libyan Government forces retreat 150 kilometres. Militias charge down the road after then and attack them - so now Libyan government forces are breaching the ceasefire and we fire missiles on them?

I have got this right, haven't I?

And deranged journalists with madness glowing in their eyes are sunk so deep in doublespeak they can not even softly hint at the hypocrisy?

We really do intend to try and bomb all the way to Tripoli?

 

[angrysoba]

UN Doublespeak: Ceasefire



So let me get this straight. The UN Security Council demands a ceasefire.

Libyan Government forces retreat 150 kilometres. Militias charge down the road after then and attack them - so now Libyan government forces are breaching the ceasefire and we fire missiles on them?

I have got this right, haven't I?

And deranged journalists with madness glowing in their eyes are sunk so deep in doublespeak they can not even softly hint at the hypocrisy?

We really do intend to try and bomb all the way to Tripoli?

Yes, Gadaffi is being overthrown, LGR. There wasn't really much doubt about that though, was there?

 

[lionking]

UN Doublespeak: Ceasefire



So let me get this straight. The UN Security Council demands a ceasefire.

Libyan Government forces retreat 150 kilometres. Militias charge down the road after then and attack them - so now Libyan government forces are breaching the ceasefire and we fire missiles on them?

I have got this right, haven't I?

And deranged journalists with madness glowing in their eyes are sunk so deep in doublespeak they can not even softly hint at the hypocrisy?

We really do intend to try and bomb all the way to Tripoli?

Sorry LGR, you hero is in for a serious ass wumping. One less rabid anti-semite in the world.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Yes, Gadaffi is being overthrown, LGR. There wasn't really much doubt about that though, was there?

That will, in the end, depend on how Libyans react. Remember a few days before the "no fly zone" (read tactical air support) was announced, the Libyan military was confident they would be able to move into Benghazi in a few days as "the rebels are not very numerous".

All I am doing here is just pointing out the deceit of our leaders and the insanity of our media.

Just remember in 2010
High human development
1 Libya 0.755
2 Mauritius 0.701
3 Tunisia 0.683
4 Algeria 0.677

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

 

[angrysoba]

That will, in the end, depend on how Libyans react. Remember a few days before the "no fly zone" (read tactical air support) was announced, the Libyan military was confident they would be able to move into Benghazi in a few days as "the rebels are not very numerous".

Dream on.

 

[JihadJane]

Bushbama:




George Galloway on the West's Libya intervention:



"The Arab League, without exception, is a collection of puppet presidents, corrupt kings, every one of them a dictator, every one of them now shooting their own people who are demonstrating for democracy...

..British men and women and taxes being used to put one group of people in Libya in power rather than another? No thanks."

 

[little grey rabbit]

Sorry LGR, you hero is in for a serious ass wumping. One less rabid anti-semite in the world.

You do realise he is 1/4 Jewish? - maternal grandmother.

Lionking, you seem to have trouble understanding this simple point. No one is being "ass wumped", people are being killed and at the moment and for a long time yet, not one of these people being killed are called Gadaffi.

Moreover these people don't really have a choice about being killed. Rebels made a choice to pick up weapons, a Libyan soldier did not.

You think the ADF have mateship? Why should the Libyan army not have mateship? Do you think it a tragedy when the ADF loses someone in Afghanistan to a roadside bomb? Why are you beside yourself with glee with a Libyan soldier dies?

 

[egslim]

Libyan Government forces retreat 150 kilometres.

150 kilometres worth of nothing, it's just sand and longer supply lines for whoever controls it.

Now comes the tricky part: Can the rebels actually take the cities without further help? Air support does more harm than good when the objective is to liberate a city. Their logistics are weak. Defending a city is much easier than taking it.

And if the rebels succeed, how will they treat the people they just liberated? After several days of heavy fighting they may not feel too kind toward Gadaffi loyalists. With undisciplined troops that means rape and massacre.

 

[little grey rabbit]

150 kilometres worth of nothing, it's just sand and longer supply lines for whoever controls it.

I think you are misunderstanding the concept of "ceasefire"

If you demand a ceasefire from one side and the other side chase them 150 kilometers and attack them and if the first side tries to defend themselves - can you, without the deepest of hypocrisy, say they are breaching the ceasefire and launch bombing raids on them?

The answer is too obvious to need to be spelled out.

My opinion is that the claimed attack on Benghazi was completely hyped and was nothing more than rebels attacking Government forces outside of Benghazi - it was absolutely vital that they be able to claim that the government was violating the ceasefire.

 

[egslim]

I think you are misunderstanding the concept of "ceasefire".

No, I just don't care about it. Gadaffi only declared it to play for time and the rebels didn't agree to it. This conflict is too messy for a "ceasefire" to work anyway, people fire their guns in the air all the time, even when no enemy is in sight. Even if there was a "ceasefire" order, probably half the forces wouldn't receive it with the lousy communications they have.

My opinion is that the claimed attack on Benghazi was completely hyped and was nothing more than rebels attacking Government forces outside of Benghazi - it was absolutely vital that they be able to claim that the government was violating the ceasefire.

More likely Gadaffi gambled he might be able to take Benghazi quickly, before Western air power would immobilize his forces. He declared a ceasefire to win a little more time for that.

Now that this has failed, he should barricade his forces in the cities. That places the burden on the rebels, and it might get very long and messy.

 

[Skeptic]

That guy's a member of the Communist Party of Great Britain - Marxist-Leninist.

A few years back the International Socialist Trostskyist Worker's Party of Great Britain (I got the name wrong probably, but you get the idea) closed down after a party conference ended with a disasterous split that let to the walking-out of 67% of the entire party's body.

The other two guys quit.

 

[geni]

Now that this has failed, he should barricade his forces in the cities. That places the burden on the rebels, and it might get very long and messy.

Depends on how much he can trust the local populations. Any forces in cities are going to be cut off with limited resupply any they are not exactly vast in number. Could they handel a further insurection?

With his C&C systems trashed his secret police are going to have a harder time keeping the population inline.

 

[Skeptic]

All I am doing here is just pointing out the deceit of our leaders and the insanity of our media.

Yeah, well, what else can you expect from people so silly they actually think the holocaust occured. Nothing but lies, I'll bet.

But you still haven't explained how this Libya thing is all the fault of the Jews. Come on, out with it! We know you think it. As a Jew, I'm just dying to know what evil nefarious conspiracy I was secretly involved with this time.