Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[RoseMontague]

CoulsdonUK,



post script
And worst of all, no nominations for the language award, despite some decent efforts. Who can forget the description of the bra clasp as being "passed around like a joint at a Pink Floyd concert." I hope I got that right; it might have come from Kaosium.

I did nominate Kaosium's post and was immediately accused of being one of "those people" (Knox groupies). I posted a really nice response but the post did not win. Here is Kaosium's post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6810625&postcount=2690

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I'm really impressed with the commenters that take the time and effort to gather and analyze information.

I also note that most of the criticism and most of the questions come from posters that rarely take the time to cite references.

I recognize also the some comments with uncited references come from educational or life experiences that are shared by many, but not all.

Kevin response listed below was after you mistakenly posted some incorrect information.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6970591&postcount=4932

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I did nominate Kaosium's post and was immediately accused of being one of "those people" (Knox groupies). I posted a really nice response but the post did not win. Here is Kaosium's post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6810625&postcount=2690

Clearly then we have all felt the same way at different times. I do not always agree with views here, sometimes I respond sometimes I just leave it.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

There are many similarities, cell towers putting people where they were not, diaries leaked to the press, a supposed disagreement that wasn't, police coercing a false accusation (this time there is a record of this), police trying to make the evidence fit their initial theory, and a press gone wild in it's desire for another female killing a female story involving sex, journalists getting sued and thrown in jail, prosecutors trying to block evidence being released, it just goes on and on. It's drama, that seems to me what both the cops and the public want, to be entertained. I just don't get it.

A conclusion could be then that this is not extraordinary behaviour in case of Meredith’s murder but typical or at least common? I am not stating whether it is wrong or right just common, in Italy.

 

[Justinian2]

RoseMontague, Kaosium and other believers. I read and appreciate your replies.

I just downloaded "The Monster of Perugia" by Mark Waterbury. I love it! He holds nothing back and tells it like it is. He says "The degree of prood from the defense has far exceeded that standard" (guilt beyond a reasonable doubt). and "Unfortunately, something is rotten in Perugia."

 

[RoseMontague]

Kevin response listed below was after you mistakenly posted some incorrect information.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6970591&postcount=4932

We all make mistakes, most are not intentional ones. I recall being corrected here twice by Christiana on some errors I made. It happens and I still respect her and I am glad she is here. I also disagree with some on "my side". For katy_did, we don't agree on the bra cut/ripped question, for katody the bathmat shuffle, for Kevin the Raffaele story on the double DNA knife. It happens but it does not make them or me not worthy because we don't agree on things.

I admire Justinian's openness and willingness to state his opinions, some of which I disagree with, some I don't. I am glad he is here. We are all different in what we believe, if we personally don't agree with a particular belief, it simply means to me that this is an area we can explore and discuss, it is an opportunity for debate.

 

[Justinian2]

Kevin response listed below was after you mistakenly posted some incorrect information.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6970591&postcount=4932

Yes, he said "No he doesn't." in response to yet another derogatory remark about me from a guilter from PMF (there are 190 such remarks on PMF even though I can't post there)

I am not an accountant and don't always get the number of peanuts correct when it doesn't matter. But I did correct my error and have posted the information a couple of times. I notice that the guilters don't correct, they criticize and make a big deal of small irrelevant errors.

You are free to challenge my ideas and reasons. Feel free to supply some data of your own. There are too many generalizations about the responses of others and too little data.

 

[RoseMontague]

A conclusion could be then that this is not extraordinary behaviour in case of Meredith’s murder but typical or at least common? I am not stating whether it is wrong or right just common, in Italy.

Those two cases along with the case of Elisa Claps and Yara have probably been the most sensational murders discussed in Italy over the last few years. All have involved a young female victim. The interest from that standpoint is probably common in other countries including mine and yours. The question is are the cops being influenced by the media attention and are they in some manner playing to an audience?

The medium is the message.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

post script
And worst of all, no nominations for the language award, despite some decent efforts. Who can forget the description of the bra clasp as being "passed around like a joint at a Pink Floyd concert." I hope I got that right; it might have come from Kaosium.

The button for nominating a post for the Language Award is down at the bottom of each post window, towards the left. It's labeled "Nominate", and looks like this ...



Everyone is allowed to use it, even you. All it takes is a mouse click.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

We all make mistakes, most are not intentional ones. I recall being corrected here twice by Christiana on some errors I made. It happens and I still respect her and I am glad she is here. I also disagree with some on "my side". For katy_did, we don't agree on the bra cut/ripped question, for katody the bathmat shuffle, for Kevin the Raffaele story on the double DNA knife. It happens but it does not make them or me not worthy because we don't agree on things.

I admire Justinian's openness and willingness to state his opinions, some of which I disagree with, some I don't. I am glad he is here. We are all different in what we believe, if we personally don't agree with a particular belief, it simply means to me that this is an area we can explore and discuss, it is an opportunity for debate.

Sometimes I wonder God forbid someone who makes a mistake or worse seems to have a different position to what I starting see as a collective view. It seems at times from some posters that you are either with us or against us.

 

[RoseMontague]

In Amanda's case this is how the media attention was described recently in Stephen Nazzi's blog:

The obsessive focus on Amanda Knox has been going on since the beginning of this ugly history, in November 2007. Even today there are newspapers and television broadcasts that field on the portrait of a girl described as a black widow, maneater, devilish. But to demonize superficilamente qulcuno without knowing anything about the person they are speaking, evidence that the accused or exonerated and sometimes without even knowing anything about the story of which you are talking about is one of the habits of the Italian press on (particularly some television).

http://translate.googleusercontent....le.com&usg=ALkJrhitADmIcxpPv9P1-fLyWjd2FNlUSg

 

[quadraginta]

I did nominate Kaosium's post and was immediately accused of being one of "those people" (Knox groupies). I posted a really nice response but the post did not win. Here is Kaosium's post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6810625&postcount=2690

The TLA nomination threads are part of the Community Forum, and posts there can reflect that from time to time, but a nomination is still a nomination, and if selected for the end of month poll it will get voted on just like all the others.

I don't know if it will reassure you or not, but there are plenty of other nominations which get derisory comments in those threads. You don't need to feel singled out just because yours was from here.

 

[RoseMontague]

Sometimes I wonder God forbid someone who makes a mistake or worse seems to have a different position to what I starting see as a collective view. It seems at times from some posters that you are either with us or against us.

You are in the minority here and extra attention to your slightest error will be pounced on with great fervor. The more you post the more chance that some slight slip up or typo leads to universal condemnation, scorn, and derision.

Meaning, you have made an excellent point, in my opinion.

 

[Justinian2]

I've made three nominations but stopped after I saw what others were nominating. It seemed like many nominations were sarcastic.

See my signature:
Ordinary people never thank another for knowledge.
Smart people show their appreciation with dollars.

Conversely, some expect free knowledge and criticize anything wrong - especially from those that they disagree with.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

You are in the minority here and extra attention to your slightest error will be pounced on with great fervor. The more you post the more chance that some slight slip up or typo leads to universal condemnation, scorn, and derision.

Meaning, you have made an excellent point, in my opinion.

I registered here because it has no public stance one way or the other on Meredith murder, I do read posts on sites either side of the case but I have not registered, it should not matter here whether I am in a minority or not.

I am not directing this at you, our post remain civil and that is how it should be.

 

[Justinian2]

Any comments on these posts about Mark Waterbury's book or the reason that far too many believe that Amanda is guilty?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6986294#post6986294
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6986045#post6986045

 

[RoseMontague]

I registered here because it has no public stance one way or the other on Meredith murder, I do read posts on sites either side of the case but I have not registered, it should not matter here whether I am in a minority or not.

I am not directing this at you, our post remain civil and that is how it should be.

I agree with you completely.

I noticed I failed to give a reference for my the Medium is the Message analogy regarding the case coverage. It is a very interesting concept and one that is even more true today than in the early days of electronic media. It is certainly worth researching if you have any interest along these lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_medium_is_the_message_(phrase)

 

[RoseMontague]

Any comments on these posts about Mark Waterbury's book or the reason that far too many believe that Amanda is guilty?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6986294#post6986294
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6986045#post6986045

There have been so many books about the case that the facts they cover and what was said in one versus the other are starting to blur together. I distinguish them simply by writing style. I like Mark's style because of his use of literary references, analogy, and humor to make his points. Bruce presents a factual and understandable argument for innocence and Barbie gives some of the behind the scenes information on the press that I found useful but was lacking in detail. Dempsey probably combines both the detail and a good analysis but is not as fun of a read for me as was Mark's book.

Grisham's book on this case will garner the most attention, some of his books are terrific and some are absolutely horrible. It's like a box of chocolates.

 

[Justinian2]

There have been so many books about the case that the facts they cover and what was said in one versus the other are starting to blur together. I distinguish them simply by writing style. I like Mark's style because of his use of literary references, analogy, and humor to make his points. Bruce presents a factual and understandable argument for innocence and Barbie gives some of the behind the scenes information on the press that I found useful but was lacking in detail. Dempsey probably combines both the detail and a good analysis but is not as fun of a read for me as was Mark's book.

Grisham's book on this case will garner the most attention, some of his books are terrific and some are absolutely horrible. It's like a box of chocolates.

I've read the books of Dempsey, Bruce and Mark. They are all good. I've also used the Massei report as a reference since it is not a fun read but represents the prosecution's viewpoint.

Mark represents my viewpoint in this way: "The real questions lie in what happened that led up to the murder, and why the investigation was so completely and obviously , twisted to achieve the desired result. That is where I believe the real mysteries lie." My attempts to post in this area get me clobbered by the PMF (190 derogatory comments on my JREF posting). Quoting Mark's book is also what got me tossed off the PMF.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

From Rinaldi's report:



Reading the entire report, not once does he mention a comparison to anyone else's footprint. I don't believe Mignini wanted him to based on what he was told to investigate. That is really poor, in my opinion.

ETA: No mention that I can find in Vinci of any other footprints for comparison. You can bet he would have tried to compare them.

RoseMontague,

Is this the comment you mentioned today? I am not sure how I overlooked it, but I agree that Rinaldi's charge was too narrow. MOO.