Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[CoulsdonUK]

My point was that a majority verdict and being correct are potentially two different things. If the majority thinks that Amanda is guilty (or not guilty) does mean the verdict is correct.

What is correct? Take all of man's knowledge and calculate every single possibility. Then assign a score to the outcome. That is how a chess computer determines the correct move. The chess computer can easily beat a majority vote of people not using computers.

However, even in a chess calculation, there comes a time when there are twenty nearly equal moves. So what then? If a person's life is at stake you have to decide whether to let him (or her) go or destroy their lives when there is no clear decision.

I think that Amanda is clearly innocent. Whether or not the majority agrees is irrelevant to the truth.

I think that Amanda is clearly innocent. Whether or not the majority agrees is irrelevant to the truth.

Fair enough. Are you saying that the “majority” believe they are not innocent?

 

[katy_did]

Frank has a post up about this:

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2011/03/mysterious-disappearence-in-knox.html

Hope Frank's meeting with Mignini goes OK.

They told me to take a disco bus named Desire, and then transfer to one called Cemeteries and ride six blocks and get off at Elysian Fields.

Thanks Rose.

Tomorrow they are going to arrest you, an informant let me know last Friday. The information was probably a bit exaggerated (and I wasn’t in town, they couldn’t have arrested me anyway). But the homicide squad (those who were so kind to Raffaele, Amanda and Patrick) did go look for me the next day. When they didn’t find me they called and told me to go to the police station. Yeah, right, I dash...

I told them in no way I would enter that place alone. For sure I know of people who by chance have entered a police station and ended up confessing to be present at a crime... or accusing themselves... or someone else... or they found themselves, next morning, in the morgue.

Paolo Onofri called the police: sued. Amanda and Raffaele called the police: jailed. Alberto Stasi called the police: jailed. Filippo Pappalardi called the police: jailed. Sabrina Misseri called the police: jailed. The two Romaninas were interrogated: jailed. Enrico Tironi went to testify: sued. Salvatore Marino was interrogated: dead. Federico Aldrovandi met the police: dead. Giusepppe Uva was arrested: dead. Aldo Bianzino was arrested: dead. Stefano Cucchi was arrested: dead. A girl last week was arrested: raped. The justice system had relied on them: killed. When I recently opened my door to the police: arrested and accused of having beaten them.

Yes, me, this tremendous fighter, managed to beat up five cops: and they call themselves forza pubblica!... [...]

So I avoided the meeting with the dangerous people. I told them to fax my lawyer what they wanted to tell me. And they faxed a modello 52, convocation of persona informata sui fatti. Signed: Mignini. Okay, Mignini. I can go next Monday.

At least in that office I won’t risk my life, just my freedom...

Wow, just wow...

 

[Alt+F4]

ALT + F4.
Its seems your house of cards has started to full, and full they will.

Yeah, full they will.

 

[zeb]

ALT+F4
Sorry let me try again.
Fall they will.

Oh well some one got to be the dimbo at spelling, it seems I am the first class case.
Z- for spelling beat that

 

[Alt+F4]

It's curious how a subset of the pro-guilt community flip-flop between arguing that Amanda and Raffaele are factually guilty, and arguing that regardless of their guilt or innocence they will lose in court.

Have you read Frank's latest blog post? He calls Italy "the new Soviet Union" and calls the police the killers of the judicial system. And this is a guy that thinks the lovebirds are innocent.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

John Kercher has an article in the Sunday Times (news review section) about the impact Meredith’s murder has had and continues to have on the family. As ever he writes about Meredith the person rather than murder victim, he laments that she has been forgotten that the media seems transfixed with Amanda and remarks about the on-line views of her supporters.

 

[Justinian2]

Fair enough. Are you saying that the “majority” believe they are not innocent?

My hope is that the majority of Italian jurists see a reasonable doubt as to their guilt. Like many here, I believe that they are 100% innocent.

I just want the majority of Italian jurists to observe that there is not sufficient evidence to prove them guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I cannot see how any other finding is possible.

I also cannot understand how a baboon thinks.

 

[Alt+F4]

John Kercher has an article in the Sunday Times (news review section) about the impact Meredith’s murder has had and continues to have on the family. As ever he writes about Meredith the person rather than murder victim, he laments that she has been forgotten that the media seems transfixed with Amanda and remarks about the on-line views of her supporters.

Which Sunday Times? Do you have a link?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Unfortunately the UK Sunday Times can only be accessed online via subscription.

http://www.timesplus.co.uk/sto/?login=false&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thesundaytimes.co.uk%2Fsto%2Fnewsreview%2F

 

[CoulsdonUK]

My hope is that the majority of Italian jurists see a reasonable doubt as to their guilt. Like many here, I believe that they are 100% innocent.

I just want the majority of Italian jurists to observe that there is not sufficient evidence to prove them guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I cannot see how any other finding is possible.

I also cannot understand how a baboon thinks.

I can understand your hope, but do you believe that the jury could make a decision based on what has unfolded so far in the appeal?

 

[snook1]

I would like to say - kudos to Frank. He's my on line hero and he's doing amazing job.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

One would think we could all agree that if the prosecution failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they were guilty of the charges against them, then Amanda and Raffaele should have been acquitted.

The thought process of some people who favor the guilty verdict seems to be, "Amanda and Raffaele kept changing their stories, they lied, there are so many unanswered questions and things that don't make sense...so they must be guilty somehow, of something. Therefore I accept the court's decision."

I don't think that kind of reasoning is subject to being changed, because it's based on a faulty premise.

I am not under the illusion that my views will have any bearing on the appeal I do not know what further evidence will be produced nor how the jury will interpret such evidence. However, like everyone else posting here I have a view, I have no issue with those who believe in Raffaele and Amanda’s innocence, I just think that courts are the only authority that will decide.

 

[Justinian2]

http://www.truecrimereport.com/2010/02/meghan_landowski_murder_robert.php

No one knows what got into him that afternoon in April of 2008. But he broke into Meghan's house while no one was home and waited for her to get home from school. As she walked in the door, he attacked.

He duct taped her mouth shut and taped her arms behind her back. Then he raped her before stabbing her 40 times -- a dozen of those wounds came after she was already dead. He left her bleeding with her pants down on the kitchen floor, the pool of blood spread 10-feet wide.

This murder is identical to Guede's murder of Meredith except that the murderer got 42 years in prison and nobody else was accused. Others were suspects, but only the guy who left the semen was actually accused. The accused also had no motive and told a story of another that held a gun on him and forced him to rape and kill.

CoulsdonUK:

I can understand your hope, but do you believe that the jury could make a decision based on what has unfolded so far in the appeal?

Most in Italy probably already know the prosecution's theories. So for better or worse, the answer is yes.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

http://www.truecrimereport.com/2010/02/meghan_landowski_murder_robert.php



This murder is identical to Guede's murder of Meredith except that the murderer got 42 years in prison and nobody else was accused. Others were suspects, but only the guy who left the semen was actually accused. The accused also had no motive and told a story of another that held a gun on him and forced him to rape and kill.

CoulsdonUK:


Most in Italy probably already know the prosecution's theories. So for better or worse, the answer is yes.

Interesting link although I am not sure I see the similarities you refer to and I quote:

The two kids had been friends and former classmates, waiting together for the bus when they went to the same school. To this day, Barnes has never said why he murdered the girl. In court, he apologized to the family. But he's never explained whether the attack was simply sexually motivated, or if he had a beef with the young girl.

 

[Justinian2]

Interesting link although I am not sure I see the similarities you refer to and I quote:

She was going to a different high school at the time of the murder. That's why Robert was the last suspect.

1) Semen was found on her panties and on her body.
2) Multiple knife wounds. Wounds to the neck. Victim died in a pool of her own blood.
3) Gained entry through window, waited for the victim and killed her shortly after entry.
4) She tried to fight off her attacker.
5) He claimed a mysterious other actually killed the victim.
6) Others were accused before Robert was found.
7) Race

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Streetcar

Have you read Frank's latest blog post? He calls Italy "the new Soviet Union" and calls the police the killers of the judicial system. And this is a guy that thinks the lovebirds are innocent.

alt+F4,

Frank mentioned Federico Aldrovandi. That case alone would be enough to make me ask for reforms.

RoseMontague,

Loved the Streetcar reference.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

She was going to a different high school at the time of the murder. That's why Robert was the last suspect.

1) Semen was found on her panties and on her body.
2) Multiple knife wounds. Wounds to the neck. Victim died in a pool of her own blood.
3) Gained entry through window, waited for the victim and killed her shortly after entry.
4) She tried to fight off her attacker.
5) He claimed a mysterious other actually killed the victim.
6) Others were accused before Robert was found.
7) Race

I assume the additional information you are providing is from another source as it did not appear in the link you provided.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

alt+F4,

Frank mentioned Federico Aldrovandi. That case alone would be enough to make me ask for reforms.

RoseMontague,

Loved the Streetcar reference.

BTW do you have the link for your blog?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Which Sunday Times? Do you have a link?

24 hour access to the UK Times is available for 1 UK pound, BTW.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Extract from John Kercher article:

We would like to be able to remember Meredith for the loving, humorous and caring person she was, rather than a murder victim. But under Italian law Knox and Sollecito have a right to two appeals: one to the court in Perugia, which is in progress, and, if that should fail, a further one to the Supreme Court in Rome.

The result of the current appeal is not expected until September. Should it go against them, then at least a year or even years could pass as the second appeal is heard. This is the stuff of nightmares, compounded by the way that Knox has been turned into a celebrity and the murder into entertainment.

I saw the trailer for the American TV film about her and was horrified by the scene that purported to depict the killing of my daughter. It was removed before broadcast but Meredith was still shown with a bloody wound in her neck. Mez, as we called her, should not be remembered by the way she died but by how she was for the 21 years of her short life.

As a little girl she was funny, clever and extremely selfassured, with a wonderful singing voice. At about five she told me she wanted to be a pop star. When a girl with whom she was meant to do a duet at junior school fell sick, Meredith performed the song alone. Other parents came up afterwards to compliment her nerve and ability.

She wasn’t a show-off. Her talents often surfaced spontaneously — such as when she picked up a toy guitar at home, stuffed a cigarette in her mouth, pulled her hair down over her face, stuck a hat on her head and did an impression of Slash from Guns N’ Roses. It was hilarious.