Japan earthquake + tsunami + nuclear problems

Agree - so the lesson to be learned, were people evacuted at the wrong time. Someone made a judgement call, something an engineer can not design against
Actually engineers design against bad judgement all the time.

But no engineer can design against every possible contingency. I imagine that in this case we will find out just how good the design really was.
 
On another note, it never ceases to amaze me just how powerful earthquakes can be - wow :jaw-dropp

Yah the news I just watched did a comparison I thought was rather tacky, saying the energy was equivalent to 300 Hiroshima bombs. :jaw-dropp
(that may have been the tsunami not the earthquake)

In another they used blocks to represent the energy. The Haiti earthquake was equivalent to 30 building blocks, yesterdays 900.
 
As for your question, the absolute worst-case scenario that I can imagine is another Chernobyl... but that is really, really, REALLY stretching it;
More than you know. From my limited knowledge, another Chernobyl is physically impossible at Fukushima because Chernobyl had a graphite core which caught fire.
 
Probably more radiation from the hospitals destroyed. :rolleyes:

The idea of containment domes is that they do contain radiation 3 Mile Island was a success in that regard.

Chernobyl had no containment - there is no comparator there.

Consider the amount of poisonous materiels released into the environment from the chemical and petro-chemical facilities destroyed - nto to mention the huge sediment disturbances which will bring back much of the mercury that used to plague the Japanese fisheries.

Media still playing on stupid fear mongering about nuclear reactors. :mad:
 
More than you know. From my limited knowledge, another Chernobyl is physically impossible at Fukushima because Chernobyl had a graphite core which caught fire.

Ah yes, thanks for that reminder. I knew there was something specific to Chernobyl which was missing from this scenario.

So, worst case scenario, nothing like Chernobyl.
 
Why is the evacuation zone growing larger? Six miles was supposed to be a safe distance.

Whether it is planned or serendipitous, given the lack of fuel and the difficulty getting out of the area, it's better to evacuate from the center out in sections anyway.
 
More than you know. From my limited knowledge, another Chernobyl is physically impossible at Fukushima because Chernobyl had a graphite core which caught fire.

Ah yes, thanks for that reminder. I knew there was something specific to Chernobyl which was missing from this scenario.

So, worst case scenario, nothing like Chernobyl.

Nitpick: chernobyl had a graphite moderator...the core was a uranium with Pu breeding capability--all russian reactors were dual use weapons/power. Chernobyl went prompt critical causing a huge power excursion...this could happen to this plant if the control rods dropped out of the bottom of the reactor and cold water was introduced into the plant. Now, not much of a chance and containment would help, but that would be beyond design basis. Borated water is used to prevent such things, but it is sort of possible.

glenn
 
On another forum (a sports one, of all things), one of the poster's fathers is in the nuke engineering industry here in the US. And he was saying that word from the grapevine is that the engineers at Fukushima abandoned their posts before shutting the reaction down when the tsunami warning came in. Here's his post:


How much of that is confirmed? I don't know. It's all thirdhand. But nothing I've seen in the news contradicts any of that. At any rate, if this guy's father is correct, then the only reason this is an issue at all is because that one plant's crew didn't shut things down before fleeing the tsunami.

Now, can anyone blame them? I have no idea. I don't know how long it takes to shut a core down. For all I know, they thought they only had seconds to survive, so therefore fled. It's simply unclear. But the implication is that the procedure in case of emergency was to do the shutdown and only then leave, so the charge being made is that the ultimate, originating problem here was human error. It'll be interesting to see in the upcoming weeks and months how accurate this claim ends up being.

I think the worlds third biggest economy could have afforded a more modern, safer design than keep one running with technology that is 50 years old.
 
Last edited:
That's why it bugs me that so many armchair experts are complaining about Japanese readiness and rescue efforts. There is just so much destruction of different types that no amount of planning can prepare for. This is way beyond the capacity of any of the best rescue forces in the world.

Yes, I agree completely.

I defy anyone to see some of the pictures of this quake and not acknowledge just how incredibly destructive this earthquake and tsunami was.

Some people I work with were opining that perhaps some cities and power plants weren't built to the counter the possibility of withstanding a quake and tsunami like this but I thought that they may as well have been saying that nuclear power plants should be designed so that there can never be an earthquake strong enough to destroy it. This is, of course, asking for the impossible.

I think the post-mortem on just how well the nuclear engineers and government responded can wait but as far as I can make out the response was very rapid and praiseworthy. The destruction here was immense and NOBODY could have been fully prepared for it.
 
World nuclear news have some update. It's the clearest situation description I've seen so far, with detailed scheme of the reactor building. Seems like all important parts are still intact.

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Battle_to_stabilise_earthquake_reactors_1203111.html

This seems resonable...based on the information, it appears that hydrogen probably leaked out of the reactor, primary containment and the suppression torus at the bottom of the reactor and then exploded. This is likely what was seen on the video as a concrete/dust explosion.

This is bad...the core is probably a pile of debris in the bottom of the vessel now.

glenn
 
Last edited:
Much sensible stuff has been said, but what people will see repeatedly is the explosion and children being checked for radiation by guys in protective suits.

Another nuclear renaissance died here.
 
Yes, I agree completely.

I defy anyone to see some of the pictures of this quake and not acknowledge just how incredibly destructive this earthquake and tsunami was.

Some people I work with were opining that perhaps some cities and power plants weren't built to the counter the possibility of withstanding a quake and tsunami like this but I thought that they may as well have been saying that nuclear power plants should be designed so that there can never be an earthquake strong enough to destroy it. This is, of course, asking for the impossible.

I think the post-mortem on just how well the nuclear engineers and government responded can wait but as far as I can make out the response was very rapid and praiseworthy. The destruction here was immense and NOBODY could have been fully prepared for it.

I agree with you, but I am afraid quite a few won't see it that way...it is actually amazing how well the plants withstood this mess. The plant seemed to survive the earthquake well but the tsunami caused too many problems.

glenn
 
I agree with you, but I am afraid quite a few won't see it that way...it is actually amazing how well the plants withstood this mess. The plant seemed to survive the earthquake well but the tsunami caused too many problems.

glenn

I think most people will be swayed by what they see, and nuclear power just became political poison. Again.
 
The Canadian Nuclear Society has issued a statement on some of the claims made in the Canadian media by a representative of the anti-nuclear movement:

CNS Response to Gordon Edwards

This is a response from the Alberta Branch of the Canadian Nuclear Society to comments made by Mr. Gordon Edwards concerning the events at the Fukushima-I nuclear power generating station, in Japan. It was written by Dr. Susanna Harding, with the assistance of Duane Pendergast, head of the Alberta Branch, and Jeremy Whitlock, Chair of the Education and Communications Committee

History of the plant: The reactor in question was ordered by Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) in 1965, with construction beginning in 1966. The plant first went critical in October of 1970 and was formally commissioned and put into operation on March 26, 1971. It is a General Electric BWR-3 (boiling water reactor) with an electric power output of 460 megawatts. Over the years it has operated quietly and without incident, but due to its age had been scheduled for decommissioning on March 26, 2011. It is a first generation BWR.

Plant characteristics: This type of plant has a steam generator directly over the nuclear core, with that steam then piped directly to the turbine driving the electric generator. This has certain thermodynamic advantages although at the cost of enhanced maintenance issues. The pressure vessel which houses the reactor core is equipped with electrically driven circulation pumps as well as with a steam driven emergency circulation pump. There exists a system for direct injection of water (ECCS, or Emergency Core Cooling System) which does not depend on electrical power. The entire reactor assembly is housed in a concrete containment structure designed to prevent the release of radioactive material in the event of a breach of the pressure vessel or the associated plumbing. This plant has emergency diesel generators for use when other forms of electrical power are not available.

Safety features: The plant is designed using a "defence in depth" concept. The nuclear fuel is encapsulated in zirconium alloy fuel rods (or pins) designed to contain fission products and gasses produced during operation. Even though water is circulating around these fuel rods, the encapsulation prevents the radioactive material from being taken up into the water. The reactor is equipped with several types of cooling system, at least two of which do not require electrical power to operate. The entire assembly is contained in the pressure vessel, which houses the reactor and which can be isolated from the generator turbine in event of emergency. The control rods mechanisms are designed to shut down the reactor in event of loss of power. Finally, the entire system in enclosed in a purpose-built structure, the containment, intended to keep that which is inside, inside.

Cooling and Meltdowns. A nuclear reactor continues to produce heat even after the reactor is shut down. In order to maintain safe conditions this heat must be removed. Normally this is done with electrically driven circulation pumps which drive cooling water through the core and take the heat to a heatsink. If the water level in the core drops below the top of the fuel, the exposed fuel (which is no longer being cooled) will heat up and warp. In extreme cases this could result in rod failure, thus releasing fission products into the cooling water. However in no case can this result in a nuclear explosion or detonation. The amount of heat generated decreases over time as the more volatile radioactive materials within the core decay, following a trend known as a "decaying exponential curve".

Venting and ECCS. If it becomes necessary to use the ECCS then the pressure within the reactor pressure vessel must be decreased to ambient pressure. This is because use of the ECCS assumes no electrical (or steam) power is available to drive pumps that could force water into the pressure vessel against a head of steam. Venting is normally done in two steps, not both of which might be necessary. First, the reactor pressure vessel is vented into the containment. Then, if necessary, the containment is vented through filters to the outside. At this point gravity fed water can be injected or (as is happening at Fukushima) water supplied by a fire truck can be used to cover the reactor core and cool it.

Fukushima and Chernobyl. The Fukushima-I reactor is a water moderated boiling water reactor. The Chernobyl RBMK reactor was a graphite moderated boiling water reactor. In the Chernobyl incident the reactor was driven into an unstable operating regime by operator action. The RBMK reactor then had an uncontrolled power spike of 100 times full power which blew the roof of the reactor building off (there was no containment structure) and exposed a glowing hot mass of graphite (carbon) to the atmosphere. The resulting chemical fire of carbon mixed with radioactive material burned for several days with results that are well known. The ensuing blast destroyed any capability to cool or control the RBMK reactor. At Fukushima there is no carbon, nothing to burn, such a scenario is not possible here. The Fukushima reactor underwent a controlled shutdown and maintains the capability to be controlled and cooled.

Fukushima and Three Mile Island. TMI-I was a pressurized water reactor (PWR) supplied by Babcock and Wilcox. Due to operator error and poor design the reactor was driven into a state where the core was unintentionally exposed. Without cooling the tops of the fuel assemblies warped and some ruptured. While this was fatal to the use of that facility (and expensive to the shareholders) very little radioactive material was released into the environment. This is very similar to what would happen at Fukushima if the core were to be exposed.

Seawater cooling. News reports have that the reactor at Fukushima is being cooled with seawater, pumped in by fire truck. In order to do this, it is necessary to vent the reactor pressure vessel sufficiently that the pump can move the water into the core. Additionally, the seawater which is being used is doped with boric acid. Boron is a neutron absorber, and it is standard operating procedure in circumstances such as this to add boron in order to ensure that the core stays dead, and to aid in suppressing residual heat generation.

Prognosis. News reports have that there has been damage to the containment building, though there have been conflicting news reports indicating that the damage was confined to an outer building and that the containment is intact. Even if the containment integrity has not been compromised, the focus is now, by whatever means, of keeping the core covered. If the core can be kept covered then the fuel rods will not rupture and there will be minimal environmental impact. It will take approximately ten days to two weeks to bring the heat generation rate down to the point where a core melt is no longer an issue.

Dr. Susanna Harding holds a Ph.D. in astrophysics from the University of Calgary, an M.Sc. in nuclear engineering from the University of Virginia, a B.S. in engineering physics from the University of Santa Clara, and additional degrees and certifications. She is a licensed Professional Physicist, a member of the Canadian Nuclear Society and of the American Nuclear Society, and works as a nuclear engineer in the US for a company which designs and manufactures safety and radiation monitoring systems for the nuclear power industry. Her background includes hands-on experience with nuclear reactors.
 
Much sensible stuff has been said, but what people will see repeatedly is the explosion and children being checked for radiation by guys in protective suits.

Another nuclear renaissance died here.

It'll come back when oil hits 200$ a barrel.
 
On another forum (a sports one, of all things), one of the poster's fathers is in the nuke engineering industry here in the US. And he was saying that word from the grapevine is that the engineers at Fukushima abandoned their posts before shutting the reaction down when the tsunami warning came in. Here's his post:


How much of that is confirmed? I don't know. It's all thirdhand. But nothing I've seen in the news contradicts any of that. At any rate, if this guy's father is correct, then the only reason this is an issue at all is because that one plant's crew didn't shut things down before fleeing the tsunami.

Now, can anyone blame them? I have no idea. I don't know how long it takes to shut a core down. For all I know, they thought they only had seconds to survive, so therefore fled. It's simply unclear. But the implication is that the procedure in case of emergency was to do the shutdown and only then leave, so the charge being made is that the ultimate, originating problem here was human error. It'll be interesting to see in the upcoming weeks and months how accurate this claim ends up being.
Actually pretty much every single news report does contradict this. The issue being is that even if you shut the reaction down it still needs to be cooled. TThe cooling systems were working and failed after the tsunami hit. So the reality is that everything pretty much was going all right until they lost power.
I think the worlds third biggest economy could have afforded a more modern, safer design than keep one running with technology that is 50 years old.
Yeah that is actually kind of bizarre. The newer systems automatically shut themselves down and none of this idiotic need for redundant power systems. Namely because the cooling is passive and not active.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom