"Do the orders still stand?" - Person identified

[Reheat]

or there is something behind both...

Ah, the ever widening/expanding conspiracy. Yes, that's it for sure.

 

[BCR]

Yes John, I know. The words used and the location described are in conflict. It's a matter of choosing which one to believe and that indicates we need to use other evidence to clarify.

I agree entirely. Mineta is kinda like Lagasse. Both have their recall of what the experienced. If you try to tell Lagasse he did not see an AA plane on the north side of the Citgo he would probably punch you out for calling him a liar. Human memory is a strange bird, and that is why empirical evidence is so important.

Too bad CNN did not have camera's rolling when Mineta arrived. I do have the footage from the evac showing someome arriving (black sedan) after the evac (raw mystery plane footage), but no way of knowing who it was. Darn media ... Won't do their jobs right

 

[Senenmut]

This is funny if you think it shows anything other than you're grasping at straws. How did Berger monitor the system? You have no clue and it shows.....

and it shows your pretty dense to not understand what belger said....

 

[Reheat]

I agree entirely. Mineta is kinda like Lagasse. Both have their recall of what the experienced. If you try to tell Lagasse he did not see an AA plane on the north side of the Citgo he would probably punch you out for calling him a liar. Human memory is a strange bird, and that is why empirical evidence is so important.

Correct. Berger was quite obviously either talking to someone else in the system and PERHAPS assumed that person was looking at a radar scope or looking at a TSD to get information and absent mindedly used radar terminology. Mineta was not aware of that or didn't recall it years after it occurred.

This all illustrates your comments precisely. Depending upon someone's recall or attempting to interpret words that conflict with other information is not the most reliable way to determine FACT. That's the fallacy of discussing this ad nauseum on Internet Forums. At the end of the day it's useless.....

 

[Reheat]

and it shows your pretty dense to not understand what belger said....

Oh, make no mistake about it I understand what he said perfectly, very likely better than you do. However, in my case the forest is not obscured by the trees.....

 

[Andy_Ross]

How would any of this show anything other than in confused situations peoples memories of events can be confused?

What are people trying to prove here?

 

[Reheat]

What are people trying to prove here?

They......are searching for the twoof! See how easy that was.

 

[Senenmut]

Oh, make no mistake about it I understand what he said perfectly, very likely better than you do. However, in my case the forest is not obscured by the trees.....

so what would you like mineta be doing about 945? in the mineta interviews, only after he knows that the pentagon got hit is when he ordered everything down.

from a monte belger interview-
Belger learned of the crash into the Pentagon shortly after it happened. He and Garvey got on the phone with Norm Mineta who decided to bring everything down (around 9:45) which was implemented. Belger continued to monitor the system as it executed this order. All aircraft were down and the system grounded by 12:15 P.M.

 

[BCR]

They......are searching for the twoof! See how easy that was.

You betcha

 

[Reheat]

from a monte belger interview-
Belger learned of the crash into the Pentagon shortly after it happened. He and Garvey got on the phone with Norm Mineta who decided to bring everything down (around 9:45) which was implemented. Belger continued to monitor the system as it executed this order. All aircraft were down and the system grounded by 12:15 P.M.

Are you really trying to imply this was the same conversation as previously discussed? Or are you trying to tell us WHERE Mineta was located during this conversation.

Mineta didn't really decide to bring everything down UNTIL AFTER THE FACT. Ben Sliney from FAA Headquarters did. FAIL

 

[MikeW]

Ben Sliney from FAA Headquarters did. FAIL

And Sliney said that Mineta's recollection of events was a "fiction", one that the FAA pressured him to go along with, for what he called reasons of "political vanity".

Which I'd guess means the FAA would rather it appear that Mineta was in control of events, than didn't even know about the order until it happened.

It's funny, really. Here we have one of the key players in Sliney providing first-hand evidence of an attempted cover-up by the FAA... But are the truthers interested? For the most part, no. They need Mineta's evidence to try and implicate Cheney, so rather than highlight the cover-up they'll go along with it.

 

[Senenmut]

Are you really trying to imply this was the same conversation as previously discussed? Or are you trying to tell us WHERE Mineta was located during this conversation.

Mineta didn't really decide to bring everything down UNTIL AFTER THE FACT. Ben Sliney from FAA Headquarters did. FAIL

and what time did sliney do that? what time did monte belger state that mineta brought everything down? you might find out that the times are the same!!

 

[Senenmut]

And Sliney said that Mineta's recollection of events was a "fiction", one that the FAA pressured him to go along with, for what he called reasons of "political vanity".

Which I'd guess means the FAA would rather it appear that Mineta was in control of events, than didn't even know about the order until it happened.

It's funny, really. Here we have one of the key players in Sliney providing first-hand evidence of an attempted cover-up by the FAA... But are the truthers interested? For the most part, no. They need Mineta's evidence to try and implicate Cheney, so rather than highlight the cover-up they'll go along with it.

the belger interview goes along with what mineta stated. first the pentagon got hit, then he ordered the planes down.

from a monte belger interview-
Belger learned of the crash into the Pentagon shortly after it happened. He and Garvey got on the phone with Norm Mineta who decided to bring everything down (around 9:45) which was implemented. Belger continued to monitor the system as it executed this order. All aircraft were down and the system grounded by 12:15 P.M.

 

[MikeW]

the belger interview goes along with what mineta stated.

Except Belger says he got on the phone to Mineta AFTER he heard of the crash, while Mineta says he was speaking to him before the crash occurred.

Oh, and you forgot to mention that Belger said he didn't recall talking to Mineta about an incoming target before the crash.

Not the most convincing of corroborations, really. Even the FAA officials trying desperately not to reveal Mineta's absence at a key moment can't manage to cover it up properly.

 

[BCR]

It's funny, really. Here we have one of the key players in Sliney providing first-hand evidence of an attempted cover-up by the FAA... But are the truthers interested? For the most part, no. They need Mineta's evidence to try and implicate Cheney, so rather than highlight the cover-up they'll go along with it.

Ah yes, more 'he said, she said'. That again shows what Reheat and I have been saying. Witness recall can be so bias and tainted.

By the way, I do care about the FAA 'cover-up'. I see a lot of circumstantial evidence that they attempted to 'revise' the history. To what extent they succeeded is certainly open to debate.

You guys have danced all around the big issue and focused on Mineta. The issue for me is who in the FAA was watching AAL77 and reporting it to SS when it was still 50 miles out? Isn't the 'official' FAA story that O'Brien spotted the plane first and set off the alarm bells to SS and DCA with the old 'six miles out' scenario?

Now that is the interesting aspect of this whole thing for me. That it coincides with Mineta's 'countdown' simply raises the issue you just raised. Where did Mineta get his 'lines' from (which distance wise matches this log) if Sliney is correct?

 

[Senenmut]

Except Belger says he got on the phone to Mineta AFTER he heard of the crash, while Mineta says he was speaking to him before the crash occurred.

what does that 945 mean to you in the belger interview?

Oh, and you forgot to mention that Belger said he didn't recall talking to Mineta about an incoming target before the crash.

link please?

Not the most convincing of corroborations, really. Even the FAA officials trying desperately not to reveal Mineta's absence at a key moment can't manage to cover it up properly.

haha...yeah, i bet that is exactly what the faa is doing!!!

 

[Reheat]

You guys have danced all around the big issue and focused on Mineta. The issue for me is who in the FAA was watching AAL77 and reporting it to SS when it was still 50 miles out? Isn't the 'official' FAA story that O'Brien spotted the plane first and set off the alarm bells to SS and DCA with the old 'six miles out' scenario?

What is the source for this, John?

Now that is the interesting aspect of this whole thing for me. That it coincides with Mineta's 'countdown' simply raises the issue you just raised. Where did Mineta get his 'lines' from (which distance wise matches this log) if Sliney is correct?

I do not recall anything specifically published or in any interview that identified exactly WHERE O'Brien first identified AA 77. I gather she was so shocked that she called other controllers to look at the return and confirm what she/they were seeing. It was sometime after this that she or a colleague got on the phone and started notifying folks. Who they notified, I don't know. More info would be certainly more interesting that this rehashed crap previously under discussion.....

 

[MikeW]

Ah yes, more 'he said, she said'. That again shows what Reheat and I have been saying. Witness recall can be so bias and tainted.

Sliney? He's not the only person making the accusation.

By the way, I do care about the FAA 'cover-up'.

I know, that's one of the reasons I qualified my statement with "for the most part.

The issue for me is who in the FAA was watching AAL77 and reporting it to SS when it was still 50 miles out?...

Now that is the interesting aspect of this whole thing for me. That it coincides with Mineta's 'countdown' simply raises the issue you just raised. Where did Mineta get his 'lines' from (which distance wise matches this log) if Sliney is correct?

That's more interesting, yes.

Re: coincidences, there are a few we could look at here. Mineta's description of the evacuation matches well with what CNN reported after the Pentagon was hit, for instance. If he didn't see it then that seems a surprising coincidence.

And from memory the reported log time of Mineta's arrival (10:07) plus his "5 or 6 minutes" matches up well with the countdown for the supposedly approaching Flight 93.

So there are issues to deal with, whether Mineta arrived at the PEOC at 9:20 or 10:07. The best we can do I guess is figure out where the weight of evidence lies.

 

[MikeW]

link please?

"Belger does not believe he heard reports of an aircraft headed to Washington, DC. Further, he believes he was informed that AAL 77 [Pentagon, 038] had crashed...

Belger clearly recalled reports of a "high speed VFR" headed eastward, though Belger does not recall speaking with the Secretary about this. The aircraft was characterized as an unidentified primary radar track that air traffic had identified east of Dulles.
http://www.911myths.com/images/c/cc/Team8_Box6_FAA_HQ_MonteBelger.pdf

haha...yeah, i bet that is exactly what the faa is doing!!!

Here's Sliney's comment:

...my recollection of what transpired was not secretary Menetta's recollection of what had transpired. It may have been the fact that my recollection of what transpired was not the same as Administrator Garvey's recollection of what had transpired in terms of their involvement in the decision making process with respect to the National Ground Stop and the order to land.

I was asked at one point by a nameless face 'why couldn't I just go along with it?'"

Sliney agreed with another Herndon CC assertion that Herndon CC personnel were asked to inaccurately represent the ground stop to match the story that Secretary Menetta ordered the ground stop: "I was asked to go along with a fiction." Sliney agreed with another Herndon CC personnel's assertion that upon analysis Herndon CC's "good story" of the day of 9/11 (Ground Stop and order to land all aircraft regardless of destination) became FAA Headquarter's "bad story", and that is why Herndon CC personnel were told to stop working on their reconstruction of the events of 9/11...

Sliney commented that an analysis of the actions of Herndon CC on 9/11 validates the importance of its creation, but instead what was presented could have been to serve "political vanity".

http://911myths.com/index.php/Image...o-MFR-Written-Testimony-Testimony-Request.pdf

Both Sliney and an unnamed other seem to think that FAA HQ wanted to cover up something here.

 

[BCR]

Reheat, please. National Geographic and just about anywhere else in the poplar media. The 911 Report gives the time at around 9:32 with notification made by DCA to the SS at 9:34.

You know darn well this is the poplarized version for public consumption. Now you may want to buy it, but I don't.