"Do the orders still stand?" - Person identified

[Reheat]

Mean.

I'll tell you what's really mean. That is that neither CIT or you as their sponsor here won't inform eager readers of the stats of Project Accountability. I mean, after all NSA was such a blockbuster the results should be overwhelming by now......

 

[Childlike Empress]

You'll get informed in due time. In the meantime, why not retract your deceptive junk science piece and make it disappear from 911myths?

 

[Reheat]

You'll get informed in due time.

Gee, I can't wait! The suspense is sometimes just too much to bear....

In the meantime, why not retract your deceptive junk science piece and make it disappear from 911myths?

Just because you have no clue doesn't mean it is junk. How many more slap downs do you see to see before you finally do get a clue?

I know, I know......

 

[Childlike Empress]

Meh.

 

[R.Mackey]

Twoofie, sure. Someone who cares about the truth, you are not!!!

What you are is a perfect example of one reason I decided to take it down

Well done, Jeff.

ONE OF US!! ONE OF US!! ONE OF US!! ONE OF US!! ONE OF US!! ONE OF US!! ONE OF US!!

 

[TruthMakesPeace]

At least Mr. Cochrane tried to question Cheney

Basically I decided to delete it yesterday because I think Mr. Cochrane is a good man and just wanted to take it down.

I agree, and apologize for criticizing Mr. Cochrane. At least he tried to question Cheney, even getting him angry. Cochrane had no way to know for sure whether the incoming flight would kill people or land at DCA. Hindsight is 20/20. He did his duty and obeyed his commanding officer, the Vice President.

 

[gumboot]

Timeline for AAL77 based on radar to correlate with Mineta's testimony.

9:26 - AAL77 was 50 nautical miles out from DC
9:30 - 30 nautical miles out
9:33 - 10 nautical miles out

If this is what Mineta was talking about, then the question to the VP would be after this at some point.

You've just proven yourself that Mineta's timeline is wrong. According to him the "does the order still stand?" happened at about 0925/26. Even just taking the basic facts of that specific event, it could not have occurred when he claimed it occurred, therefore we must accept that his times are wrong.

Once we accept that, we can look further afield for clues as to the actual time. Bear in mind that Mineta's belief that it was AA77 being discussed is a post-event determination he made based on the time he thinks this happened. If his time is wrong (which it must be), the entire basis on which he concluded it was AA77 is wrong.

The reality is numerous factors eliminate AA77.

According to Mineta's own testimony, at the time that the conversation took place:

1. The White House had been evacuated
2. Air Force One had left Sarasota
3. The VP was inside the bunker

All three of these events happened after AA77 crashed.

 

[Senenmut]

Mineta is clear that at the time he is on the phone getting clarification and it is specifically a primary target they are watching, not a TSD artifact.

i remember arguing that same point. what do you think about the approach.

mineta-
So then someone came in, the same person came in and said, "Mr. Vice President, it -- the plane's 30-miles out." So I said, "Monte, can you see it, and where is it in relationship to the ground?"

He said, "Well, that's difficult to really determine. I would guess it's somewhere between Great Falls and National Airport, coming what they call the DRA, the down river approach."

And so then the person came in and said, "Mr. Vice President, the plane's ten-miles out," and so I said, "Monte, where is it?" and he said, "Well, I'm not really sure but I'd be guessing somewhere maybe between the USA Today building and, and National Airport."

And then pretty soon he said, "Oh-oh, we just lost the target." And so a few moments later, someone came in and said, "Mr. Vice President, there's been an explosion at the Pentagon."

 

[Dog Town]

You've just proven yourself that Mineta's timeline is wrong. According to him the "does the order still stand?" happened at about 0925/26. Even just taking the basic facts of that specific event, it could not have occurred when he claimed it occurred, therefore we must accept that his times are wrong.

Once we accept that, we can look further afield for clues as to the actual time. Bear in mind that Mineta's belief that it was AA77 being discussed is a post-event determination he made based on the time he thinks this happened. If his time is wrong (which it must be), the entire basis on which he concluded it was AA77 is wrong.

The reality is numerous factors eliminate AA77.

According to Mineta's own testimony, at the time that the conversation took place:

1. The White House had been evacuated
2. Air Force One had left Sarasota
3. The VP was inside the bunker

All three of these events happened after AA77 crashed.

Excellent points!


@BCR
Do you have ANY info on recording devices, used by cams mounted on the Pentagon? Besides the parking lot, of course!

 

[Reheat]

He said, "Well, that's difficult to really determine. I would guess it's somewhere between Great Falls and National Airport, coming what they call the DRA, the down river approach."

Congratulations, you've just proven that Berger WAS NOT looking at a radar screen and referencing AA 77. AA 77 was approaching from the West and WAS NO WHERE NEAR THE DRA.

However, a TSD display predicting the path of UA 93 would have been very near the DRA.

Thanks.......you've been a great help in finally resolving this issue.....

 

[Senenmut]

Congratulations, you've just proven that Berger WAS NOT looking at a radar screen and referencing AA 77.

a tsd is on a different machine. he is specifically speaking of a "target" and a "bogey".
from a mineta interview-

And a little later on, someone said, "Mr. Vice President, there's a plane 50-miles out." So I was talking to Monte Belger, the Deputy Director of the FAA, and I said, "Monte, what do you have 50-miles out?"

He said, "Well, we have a target, bogey, on the radar, but the transponder's been turned off, so we have no identification of this aircraft. We don't know who it is. We don't know what altitude it's at, speed or anything else. All we're doing is watching with the sweep of the radar, the dot moving from position to position."

AA 77 was approaching from the West and WAS NO WHERE NEAR THE DRA.

very good observation. now what?

However, a TSD display predicting the path of UA 93 would have been very near the DRA.

just like bcr stated "Mineta is clear that at the time he is on the phone getting clarification and it is specifically a primary target they are watching, not a TSD artifact."



Thanks.......you've been a great help in finally resolving this issue.....[/QUOTE]

 

[Reheat]

For the edification of those who would like a better understanding of the FAA and it's facilities and also for the record:

The facility at Hearndon, VA is known as the FAA Command Center. Their function is to manage the overall National Airspace System. They are NOT ENGAGED in the direct control of individual "real time" Air Traffic. They DO NOT have actual "real time" radar displays at that location. They manage future traffic conflict, etc via large wall mounted TSD type displays. The TDS is a prediction of Air Traffic, not real time radar. I have confirmed this as FACT via people who have worked there over the years to include some of those there in 2001.

FAA Headquarters is also a MANAGEMENT Facility and are not engaged in "real time" traffic control. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that there is no radar at FAA Headquarters either. Their only real time information is via telephone with the facilities currently controlling "real time" traffic. This is shown to be the case from numerous tape recorded conversations and/or transcripts thereof. Many of those tapes or transcripts are available at NARA. Berger was at FAA Headquarters during the conversation he had with Mineta.

Cheap Shot, if you stop by your comments on this are welcome.....

 

[BCR]

Person feelings on Mineta's account is that just like the NoC eyewitnesses, recall is a funny (and unreliable) thing. I am not convinced that he was in the PEOC until after the Pentagon event. I do not think he is lying or senile, just victim of information overload with various events and conversations getting mingled together in recall.

As far as the video issue, still unresolved. The Navy and DoD claim they do not have the Pentagon and Navy Annex camera footage, implying they gave it to the FBI. The FBI claims they don't have it either. So into the vast wasteland of government they did go and whether they will ever surface is anyones guess.

 

[Reheat]

just like bcr stated "Mineta is clear that at the time he is on the phone getting clarification and it is specifically a primary target they are watching, not a TSD artifact."

That is BCR's opinion, not fact. Your other opinions don't need a response.

 

[BCR]

That is BCR's opinion, not fact. Your other opinions don't need a response.

I'm on my Blackberry so I can't link his recorded account, but it is NOT my opinion. He states clearly that it was a radar return that was being tracked. Now whether he is getting two things mixed up together is another story entirely.

 

[Reheat]

Congratulations, you've just proven that Berger WAS NOT looking at a radar screen and referencing AA 77. AA 77 was approaching from the West and WAS NO WHERE NEAR THE DRA.

very good observation. now what?

The now what? is that words DO NOT describe what is a matter of public records. The actual path and position of AA 77 at all times is available from not just one, but multiple radars and from the FDR. That record DOES NOT match the words you interpret to mean what you desire them to mean. One or the other is WRONG!

It's not surprising you choose the words rather than the location. Other information shows you wrong anyway, so in the end it not very significant.....

 

[Reheat]

I'm on my Blackberry so I can't link his recorded account, but it is NOT my opinion. He states clearly that it was a radar return that was being tracked. Now whether he is getting two things mixed up together is another story entirely.

Yes John, I know. The words used and the location described are in conflict. It's a matter of choosing which one to believe and that indicates we need to use other evidence to clarify.

 

[Senenmut]

For the edification of those who would like a better understanding of the FAA and it's facilities and also for the record:

The facility at Hearndon, VA is known as the FAA Command Center. Their function is to manage the overall National Airspace System. They are NOT ENGAGED in the direct control of individual "real time" Air Traffic. They DO NOT have actual "real time" radar displays at that location. They manage future traffic conflict, etc via large wall mounted TSD type displays. The TDS is a prediction of Air Traffic, not real time radar. I have confirmed this as FACT via people who have worked there over the years to include some of those there in 2001.

FAA Headquarters is also a MANAGEMENT Facility and are not engaged in "real time" traffic control. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that there is no radar at FAA Headquarters either. Their only real time information is via telephone with the facilities currently controlling "real time" traffic. This is shown to be the case from numerous tape recorded conversations and/or transcripts thereof. Many of those tapes or transcripts are available at NARA. Berger was at FAA Headquarters during the conversation he had with Mineta.

Cheap Shot, if you stop by your comments on this are welcome.....

i guess you wouldnt want to believe monte belger either:
from a monte belger interview-
Belger learned of the crash into the Pentagon shortly after it happened. He and Garvey got on the phone with Norm Mineta who decided to bring everything down (around 9:45) which was implemented. Belger continued to monitor the system as it executed this order. All aircraft were down and the system grounded by 12:15 P.M.

 

[Senenmut]

Yes John, I know. The words used and the location described are in conflict. It's a matter of choosing which one to believe and that indicates we need to use other evidence to clarify.

or there is something behind both...

 

[Reheat]

i guess you wouldnt want to believe monte belger either:
from a monte belger interview-
Belger learned of the crash into the Pentagon shortly after it happened. He and Garvey got on the phone with Norm Mineta who decided to bring everything down (around 9:45) which was implemented. Belger continued to monitor the system as it executed this order. All aircraft were down and the system grounded by 12:15 P.M.

This is funny if you think it shows anything other than you're grasping at straws. How did Berger monitor the system? You have no clue and it shows.....