Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Antony]

Kasosium.
Thank you for the hint. so I did read ALT+F4 reasons explaining AK and RS guilt.
But it the same song sheet I read on other web sites.
Like I said before, "give me real facts" that prove AK and RS are guilty.
I wonder what other names this person goes under.
It seems that this person takes the rubbish that the news papers print, and then show it as real facts.
Dranceme.
May I say something to you.
As you, yourself like to insult people who do not agree with you.
Why ?

Zeb, this is not a useful line and risks falling foul of the mods here.

I am just as angry as you about the appalling injustice and judicial incompetence in this case, and just as perplexed that some people should be convinced by factors that are not real evidence. Can I suggest you focus on the "give me real facts" challenge, and ignore the petty squabbling?

 

[komponisto]

Just read the Guede Cassazione motivation by Giordano et al. (Thanks to whoever uploaded it to Rapidshare.) On the involvement of Knox and Sollecito, the following paragraph is key (p.16):

... [O]ccorre da subito sfuggire al tentativo, perseguito dall'impostazione tutta della difesa, ma fuori luogo nel contesto della decisione, di coinvolgere il collegio nel'avallo della tesi di una responsibilità di altri, che sono Raffaele Sollecito ed Amanda Xnox [sic], per l'omicidio aggravato dalla violenza sessuale, di Meredith Kercher. La decisione a cui è chiamata questa Corte concerne, e solo, la responsabilità del Guede in ordine al fatto contestato e dell'eventuale partecipazione di altri al delitto si dovrà tener conto solo nella misura in cui una tale circostanza valga ad incidere sul tema che costituisce l'impegno esclusivo in punto di riforma o conferma della declaratoria di responsabilità dell'imputato, quest'ultima del tutto condivisa dai giudici di primo e secondo grado.

... [R]ight from the outset we must resist the attempt -- reflected in [literally "pursued by"] the entire structure of the defense case, but out of place in the context of this decision -- to involve the [Cassazione] panel in endorsing the hypothesis that others, Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox, were responsible for the murder, aggravated by sexual violence, of Meredith Kercher. The decision that this Court is called to make concerns only the responsibility of Guede with regard to the act under dispute; any participation of others in the crime will be taken into account only to the extent that this circumstance bears on the matter that is our only concern: the modification or confirmation of the judgement of responsibility of the defendant -- the latter being wholly agreed upon by the judges of the first and second level.

 

[Kaosium]

Kasosium.
Thank you for the hint. so I did read ALT+F4 reasons explaining AK and RS guilt.
But it the same song sheet I read on other web sites.
Like I said before, "give me real facts" that prove AK and RS are guilty.
I wonder what other names this person goes under.
It seems that this person takes the rubbish that the news papers print, and then show it as real facts.

I disagree, I am virtually certain Alt only posts on this case only here. As for her argument I believe she's implied it resembles that which convicted Scott Peterson. Unfortunately I cannot engage her as my own knowledge of that case amounts to:

1. I've heard the name before I could grab the remote and find another channel in sheer desperation.
2. My Packer watching buddy told me last season there's something like three dead women (wives?) in his background.
3. My mother brought it up once and said she thought he was guilty because he 'looks so smug!' (*facepalm* Mother!)
4. I guess from reading posts here they found him guilty.


So maybe if you know something about that case you can contest that argument, I've avoided it as last time Fuji took me through the bilges of 'true crime' I ended up contemplating the unpalatable story of a guy named 'Spader.' It took me about an hour before I was ready to toss my cookies on my keyboard, though it was instructive as that's what a real sociopath acts like, and that's the kind of 'prose' they write.

Dranceme.
May I say something to you.
As you, yourself like to insult people who do not agree with you.
Why ?

Why is everyone always looking for insults? It's just words on a computer screen, wisps of ether 'in the end, signifying nothing.' When they insult you it often just means you're 'winning' the argument, kinda like getting booed by Bear's fans in Soldier Field--it's the highest compliment they can pay.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

Is that really an accurate summary of the whole video? It is just a few seconds, is it not. I suspect that what interested the Sollecito family was the bra clasp, which (flawed as it is) is still the single strongest piece of evidence against either Sollecito or Knox. MOO.

Is it accurate to state that the video shows the examination of Meredith Kercher, yes the length of time in my opinion is immaterial, also the Carabinieri were right to sack Vanessa Sollecito and the 5 members should stand trial.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Court documents. They describe what happened during the trial, not what happened on the night of the murder.

Documents, like an autopsy report or the forth coming geneticist report describing results of examinations, another term in the context of a judicial proceeding would be evidence.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Why is everyone always looking for insults? It's just words on a computer screen, wisps of ether 'in the end, signifying nothing.' When they insult you it often just means you're 'winning' the argument, kinda like getting booed by Bear's fans in Soldier Field--it's the highest compliment they can pay.

An interesting observation, I just tend to ignore them.

 

[zeb]

Antony I will take your advice and will not fight back agaisnt danceme

 

[Kaosium]

Is it accurate to state that the video shows the examination of Meredith Kercher, yes the length of time in my opinion is immaterial, also the Carabinieri were right to sack Vanessa Sollecito and the 5 members should stand trial.

You're really getting the hang of this 'vendetta' thing, aren't you?

BTW, which five members do you want standing trial now? So far in this rather uncomplicated break-in gone bad, outside the actual murderer they've charged Amanda something like five times, Raffaele once, two members of each of the Knox and Sollecito families, two of the defense lawyers, a journalist and editor at Oggi, a reporter from another Italian newspaper, the ones at the TV station, (is that the five?) Steve Shay of the West Seattle Herald, Joe Cottonwood, and...is that it? That's like 22+ charges to cover up their bungling of this case!

I would hope for the sake of everyone involved in the persecution of these people that when the whole rotten house of cards Mignini has cobbled together falls apart, that those victims are far more merciful and less needful of vengeance than what was inflicted upon them.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

You're really getting the hang of this 'vendetta' thing, aren't you?

BTW, which five members do you want standing trial now? So far in this rather uncomplicated break-in gone bad, outside the actual murderer they've charged Amanda something like five times, Raffaele once, two members of each of the Knox and Sollecito families, two of the defense lawyers, a journalist and editor at Oggi, a reporter from another Italian newspaper, the ones at the TV station, (is that the five?) Steve Shay of the West Seattle Herald, Joe Cottonwood, and...is that it? That's like 22+ charges to cover up their bungling of this case!

I would hope for the sake of everyone involved in the persecution of these people that when the whole rotten house of cards Mignini has cobbled together falls apart, that those victims are far more merciful and less needful of vengeance than what was inflicted upon them.

Vendetta, not sure what you mean. It is for the courts to decide on the actions of Sollecito family, I am not a friend or relative of the Kercher family. I simply believe there is one murder victim and empathise with her family just as you and others do with Raffaele and Amanda for your own reasons.

Sorry I think family members include Raffaele father, sister, stepmother not sure who the others are.

 

[Kaosium]

Just read the Guede Cassazione motivation by Giordano et al. (Thanks to whoever uploaded it to Rapidshare.) On the involvement of Knox and Sollecito, the following paragraph is key (p.16):

Thank you for that! Did you translate it? That makes it quite clear.

I wonder if anyone will ask any follow-up questions of Mignini regarding his comments much of the past two months.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

material

Is it accurate to state that the video shows the examination of Meredith Kercher, yes the length of time in my opinion is immaterial, also the Carabinieri were right to sack Vanessa Sollecito and the 5 members should stand trial.

CoulsdonUK,

Should someone within ILE stand trial for releasing Ms. Knox's HIV status and list of intimate partners?

 

[Kaosium]

Vendetta, not sure what you mean. It is for the courts to decide on the actions of Sollecito family, I am not a friend or relative of the Kercher family. I simply believe there is one murder victim and empathise with her family just as you and others do with Raffaele and Amanda for your own reasons.

Something an old poster familiar with Italian law once posted, that 'vendetta' was still a tradition in Italy, and that sometimes they went for whole families, much as Mignini and Maresca have here. I find the idea that the Sollecito's and Knox's have to go to court for their feeble efforts to defend their children from this ludicrous charge utterly reprehensible.

Have you considered for a moment that both Raffaele and Amanda are still innocent under Italian law? That as a result of this debacle both will lose at minimum three and a half years of their lives, they will have been smeared worldwide as murderous degenerates by the most despicable smear campaign I have ever had the misfortune to witness? That the Knox family has bankrupted itself in defense of their child, now faces charges, and the Sollecito's as well? That both families stand to lose their children for the rest of their own lives too, that they must wake up every day wondering about their child, or their brother, or their sister and face the whispers from the ignorant and hate-filled every day? No one directly involved in this police and judicial catastrophe will ever be made completely whole.

No, this time there were many victims of Rudy Guede's murder of Meredith Kercher. An unusual circumstance, but less so than the 'crime' the two innocents were charged with. There's been more than a thousand pages of posts in this and previous threads and no one yet has found a parallel to two college students with no history of violence hooking up with a burglar they'd barely met and raping and murdering a girl for no discernible reason, with no gang affiliations or cults, or anything to explain how such a thing could happen. They also did it by magic, leaving no trace of themselves at the scene above the contamination level. It is so far outside known human behavior and forensic probability two men who spent their careers putting Americans in jail are working to free the defendants, one of whom gave up his cushy retirement job in order to do so.

I can certainly understand empathizing with victims, I cannot understand the unholy need to create more in a thirst for unrequited redress. I found out the easy way that the only thing vengeance is good for is as a believable motive for bad guys in the movies, I think perhaps there's others who might find out the hard way.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

Should someone within ILE stand trial for releasing Ms. Knox's HIV status and list of intimate partners?

If by someone you mean a named individual who has been investigated then of course.

As an aside to your point wasn’t Amanda informed that the first result could be a false positive, which it clearly was?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Something an old poster familiar with Italian law once posted, that 'vendetta' was still a tradition in Italy, and that sometimes they went for whole families, much as Mignini and Maresca have here. I find the idea that the Sollecito's and Knox's have to go to court for their feeble efforts to defend their children from this ludicrous charge utterly reprehensible.

Have you considered for a moment that both Raffaele and Amanda are still innocent under Italian law? That as a result of this debacle both will lose at minimum three and a half years of their lives, they will have been smeared worldwide as murderous degenerates by the most despicable smear campaign I have ever had the misfortune to witness? That the Knox family has bankrupted itself in defense of their child, now faces charges, and the Sollecito's as well? That both families stand to lose their children for the rest of their own lives too, that they must wake up every day wondering about their child, or their brother, or their sister and face the whispers from the ignorant and hate-filled every day? No one directly involved in this police and judicial catastrophe will ever be made completely whole.

No, this time there were many victims of Rudy Guede's murder of Meredith Kercher. An unusual circumstance, but less so than the 'crime' the two innocents were charged with. There's been more than a thousand pages of posts in this and previous threads and no one yet has found a parallel to two college students with no history of violence hooking up with a burglar they'd barely met and raping and murdering a girl for no discernible reason, with no gang affiliations or cults, or anything to explain how such a thing could happen. They also did it by magic, leaving no trace of themselves at the scene above the contamination level. It is so far outside known human behavior and forensic probability two men who spent their careers putting Americans in jail are working to free the defendants, one of whom gave up his cushy retirement job in order to do so.

I can certainly understand empathizing with victims, I cannot understand the unholy need to create more in a thirst for unrequited redress. I found out the easy way that the only thing vengeance is good for is as a believable motive for bad guys in the movies, I think perhaps there's others who might find out the hard way.

I note your post. I do not believe the Kercher family are seeking vengeance they understandably want to know why their daughter\sister was brutally murdered the only way this can and should be done is in a court of law, as I have previously said the Italian judicial system is not perfect, I am not aware of any that are.

 

[Kaosium]

Sherlock Holmes,

IIRC, Amanda testified that Rudy may have come into the bar a few times. She did not say anything to the effect that they interacted.

I finally found what I was looking for, the other testimony on Rudy Guede from Amanda:

From post 24

Bongiorno: I am the lawyer Giulia Bongiorno. [She has a sharp, snappy voice.]

Amanda: Hello [Amanda actually says "Buongiorno"]

Bongiorno: Miss Knox, you are accused together with Raffaele Sollecito of murdering Meredith together with Rudy Guede. I would like you to tell me exactly what kind of relations you had with Rudy Guede. You already said that you saw each other few times, but I would like to ask for more information about this aspect.

Amanda: I didn't have any relations with Rudy Guede. I knew him in the sense that someone said "Look, this is Rudy, this is Amanda." I saw him around a few times. But I didn't have any relations with him.

Bongiorno: Can you tell me if you frequented each other, if you went out together? Because you said that once you saw him at a party.

Amanda: Yes, he came into my bar once, for example, but there was always this fact that I had to work there, he came in, I don't think I even gave him a drink, because -- I don't remember the situation that well, but I think he came in and then went out. I don't remember. But really, I didn't know him at all.

Thus the known contact with Rudy as established by the court is one introduction at a party where at some time a spinello was smoked, and she saw him around a few times, including at her work once, but they didn't interact.

 

[Kaosium]

Antony I will take your advice and will not fight back agaisnt danceme

Oh, c'mon Zeb! It couldn't have hurt that much, she hits like a girl!

It looked to me like she was just trying to say nicely that entering a board calling out a longtime poster doesn't usually bode well for the new one that does so, thus I don't think she was trying to 'fight you' at all.

 

[Kaosium]

If by someone you mean a named individual who has been investigated then of course.

As an aside to your point wasn’t Amanda informed that the first result could be a false positive, which it clearly was?

I've never heard that one, I read instead that false positives on the test used are extremely rare, it was at about page 200 of the previous thread if I recall correctly. Actually I looked it up for you, it was page 199. Damn! I nailed it!

It sure doesn't look to me like she thought it much of a possibility, going from her diary, and perhaps you've not seen her testimony: (from post 30)

Lawyer: Listen, in relation to this diary, there is a part in which you tell about
the AIDS tests that were made in the first days. Can you tell us? It's
written in the diary, but you can tell us exactly what happens, and also why
you wrote about it in the diary?

Amanda: So, the first thing that happened when I got to prison was that they made a [blood] analysis. After the analysis, they called me downstairs and told me that they had to make further tests because I might have AIDS. I was really shocked because I didn't understand how it could have happened that I could have gotten AIDS. But they advised to to think about where I might have caught it, so they wanted me to really think about it. So I was writing in my diary about how astonished I was, and then I wrote down every partner that I had ever had in my life...

Lawyer: How many are there? Do you remember their names?

Amanda: Seven.

Lawyer: These are the partners that you had in your life?

Amanda: Yes. All of them.

Lawyer: Why did you write them down? For some kind of check?

Amanda: Yes. For me it was a way to think about the facts: okay, I made love with him, but he doesn't have AIDS, what about this one? No, he doesn't have it either. These were people that I knew.

Lawyer: And were you worried about this situation?

Amanda: Of course.

Lawyer: What was your reaction when they told you?

Amanda: Mamma mia, I was crying, and they wanted to console me, they told me "It's okay, you just have to--" but I was thinking "No, I'm dying, I'll never have children", I was thinking it was the end of my life!

Lawyer: How many times did they make the test?

Amanda: Me?

Lawyer: How many times did they make the test to check whether you were positive?

Amanda: So, I think it was three times. I think they made one where it was negative, then one where it was maybe positive, maybe negative, and then one where it was negative.

Lawyer: How much time passed between the first and the last?

Amanda: Two weeks.

Lawyer: So for two weeks, you were worried about having AIDS.

Amanda: More than that, it was panic, I was crying.

Lawyer: This was during the first period of time that you were in prison? Do you remember the period of time?

Amanda: Yes. In fact, I didn't understand anything. I was there with a cellmate who was going crazy, who kept yelling "Don't touch me! You have AIDS!" and then there was this inspector who kept coming to talk to me, saying "Ah, come on..."

Lawyer: What? An inspector or a doctor?

Amanda: There was an inspector who called every day...

Lawyer: And then there was a doctor?

Amanda: And there was also a doctor who also called me every day.

 

[odeed]

Do you suppose this will end up like the last time someone tried to 'prove' something about Candace Dempsey being inaccurate? I remember it was around page 400 of the last thread. They got drowned in links until it was revealed just how well sourced the account of that motorcade from the Questura to the central jail actually is.

That was kinda fun!

Since I was the one that asked for evidence of this often repeated story of Dempsey, I did not have to 'prove' anything so claiming otherwise is a lie.

As for the links which show how well Dempsey "sourced" her story, I tried to sum up previously. The sources given to back up Dempsey story, were of Lumumba arrest going to the Questura in the early morning of 6th November, and that halides1 tried to justify by saying that “approach” should be changed to “leave.” (direct quote from halides1).

 

[Chris_Halkides]

police accountability

If by someone you mean a named individual who has been investigated then of course.

As an aside to your point wasn’t Amanda informed that the first result could be a false positive, which it clearly was?

CoulsdonUK,

Will ILE take it upon themselves to investigate this incident? Based what Amnesty International has said in 2008 (""Italy continued to lack an effective police accountability mechanism. There were irregularities in legal processes against law enforcement officials accused of human rights violations."), I do not believe that they will.

There is no objective record of what transpired between Ms. Knox and the person who informed her of the first test result, despite what the recent Lifetime movie implied (or at least my memory of the movie). Therefore, there is no way to know what she was or was not told with respect to the possibility of a false positive. However, Amanda's own words* do not suggest that she was aware of this possibility.

Based upon my conversations with several U.S. physicians, I would question the rationale behind even revealing the results of the first test before performing the second one. Whether or not to reveal the results depends upon the circumstances, and it is possible that Italian physicians have a different set of standard practices in this regard than American ones do. One or more commenters here has raised the possibility that Amanda was informed of the results in order to induce her to name Guede as one of her intimate partners. There is no way to prove this speculation, but ILE has committed enough ethically questionable acts to make their hypothesis plausible.

EDT
*IIRC Amanda did not use words like "might have" in her diary. However, Kaosium has provided court testimony, which makes it seem as if Amanda did recognize that the results were not definite.
Second EDT
CoulsdonUK provided a link before which indicates that my memory of Ms. Knox's diary was not accurate. I am sorry for the confusion.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

Will ILE take it upon themselves to investigate this incident? Based what Amnesty International has said in 2008 (""Italy continued to lack an effective police accountability mechanism. There were irregularities in legal processes against law enforcement officials accused of human rights violations."), I do not believe that they will.

There is no objective record of what transpired between Ms. Knox and the person who informed her of the first test result, despite what the recent Lifetime movie implied (or at least my memory of the movie). Therefore, there is no way to know what she was or was not told with respect to the possibility of a false positive. However, Amanda's own words* do not suggest that she was aware of this possibility.

Based upon my conversations with several U.S. physicians, I would question the rationale behind even revealing the results of the first test before performing the second one. Whether or not to reveal the results depends upon the circumstances, and it is possible that Italian physicians have a different set of standard practices in this regard than American ones do. One or more commenters here has raised the possibility that Amanda was informed of the results in order to induce her to name Guede as one of her intimate partners. There is no way to prove this speculation, but ILE has committed enough ethically questionable acts to make their hypothesis plausible.

EDT
*IIRC Amanda did not use words like "might have" in her diary. However, Kaosium has provided court testimony, which makes it seem as if Amanda did recognize that the results were not definite.

Sorry response was for Kaosium.


I didn’t state whether Amanda thought it could be possible just that she was told that the initial test could be a false positive.

In the spirit of links from Perugia Shock one has been posted on TJMK, maybe you can confirm or refute its authenticity?

http://truejustice.org/ee/images/perugia/frontpage92/9294.pdf