Protests in Wisconsin - Scott Walker

fishbob said:
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Money spent on capital is not taxed. No gain, no pain.
I don't see the justification for a significantly lower tax rate on the capital gains.
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Personally, I agree that income tax should never be higher than capital gains taxes.

But, taxes are pretty much driven to revenue maximizing levels by both Republicans and Democrats.

And the revenue maximizing level for capital gains taxes is substantially lower than the revenue maximizing level for income tax. If capital gains taxes are raised too high people hold on to capital rather than selling it and the government doesn't receive any revenue from capital gains taxes.
 
fishbob said:
I don't know - seems as if the risk increases substantially when your collective bargaining can be arbitrarily removed.
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Completely irrelevant.

Take your life savings and buy some stocks or bonds or invest it in a start-up business. See if you are as cavalier about this as you are driving to your job.

Odds are, you don't do the former because it's risky. The lower capital gains tax is designed to lessen the risk of investing, because we want people to invest.
 
fishbob said:
Money spent on capital is not taxed.
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Yes, in many cases it is. When you buy new computers for the office you pay whatever sales tax your area charges, the same for trucks and other machinery.

Which brings up another point - many capital investments decrease in value over time. When the furniture store's truck finally gives up the ghost after 15 years they don't sell it at a gain.
 
WildCat said:
Then you wish to discourage investment, because that is exactly what will happen.
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Hmm, more precisely I believe that the income tax level should not exceed the level of the capital gains tax. I certainly would not favor raising the capital gains tax. I am fairly sure that the capital gains tax is at its revenue maximizing level right now and raising it would not only discourage investment as you suggest it would actually result in less revenue to the government.

The only way for the income tax to be reduced to the level of the capital gains tax would be for federal spending to be significantly reduced. I think that would be a good idea but I don't think that's going to happen.

My theory with regards to that is that politicians, Republican or Democrat will always move to raise expenditures to the highest level possible. Both parties are relentlessly driven to satisfy their special interests and every year that means borrowing and taxing so as to maximize the amount of money they can redistribute.
 
A Laughing Baby said:
Well, it passed. That was some incredibly brazen politics to pull it off, too.
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No, just in the "Assembly". But I'm curious why that hadn't already occurred.

Did anyone notice, however, the other crap in the bill? It gives the governor the full power to accept no bid contracts for the state. Are these guys kidding? The power vested in one man to give contracts to cronies and the rest of the Repubs think that's peachy?


Think I'll buy some pizza.
 
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This is Walker as mayor of Milwaukee:

Major Walker contributor got no-bid contract
When staff members for Milwaukee County Executive Scott Walker needed to find an engineering firm to inspect county buildings to make sure none poses a safety risk, this is what they did:

They gave a no-bid contract to a major Walker campaign contributor.

Just recently, the county hired Graef-USA, a politically active engineering firm, to conduct emergency inspections of many county buildings to look for any safety hazards. The firm is to be paid up to $300,000 through the end of August.

The move came after last month's accident at O'Donnell Park's garage. A 15-year-old Greenfield boy was killed and two others injured when a 13-ton concrete panel fell from the parking ramp near the Summerfest grounds.

Campaign records show that Graef officials have donated nearly $15,000 to Walker's campaign fund since he was elected county exec in 2002
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But I need to clarify the no-bid power vested in Walker in the supposed emergency budget bill. It's a tad different than I first thought I heard. It's worse.

The Less Discussed Part of Walker’s Wisconsin Plan: No-Bid Energy Assets Firesales.
The fight in Wisconsin is over Governor Walker’s 144-page Budget Repair Bill. The parts everyone is focusing on have to do with the right to collectively bargain being stripped from public sector unions (except for the unions that supported Walker running for Governor). Focusing on this misses a large part of what the bill would do. Check out this language, from the same bill (my bold):

16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state−owned heating, cooling, and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state−owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (b).

The bill would allow for the selling of state-owned heating/cooling/power plants without bids and without concern for the legally-defined public interest.
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About Those Wisconsin Power Plant No-Bid Contracts
One of the provisions that hasn’t gotten much notice in Scott Walker’s union-busting bill would give Walker unilateral power to sell off public utilities in Wisconsin in no-bid contracts — a provision that would directly benefit one of Walker’s major campaign contributors, Koch Brothers Industries.

And oddly enough, here’s an advertisement posted just two days ago, looking for plant managers for multiple power plants in Wisconsin.

Energy client is looking for experienced Plant Managers for multiple power plants located in Wisconsin. You need 15 years of operations & maintenance experience in a power plant environment. You should have at least 5 years of experience managing operations & maintenance teams in an operational power plant. The ideal candidate has experience in a coal fired power plant. Salary is commensurate with experience.
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I wonder if we can expect an investigator to find out who this already planning ahead "energy client" is? It would certainly appear that Walker has been counting unhatched chickens.

My guess is the screen will disappear now that it has been exposed. I can't open "Grab" so hopefully someone else will grab the screen shot before it's gone. Little Green Footballs is widely read. You can expect this is already running through the blogosphere.
 
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Teemu said:
So kinda like Obama under whom no-bid contracts, some of them up to $500 million, have continued, despite his promises. :rolleyes:
http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/30/end-no-bid-contracts-above-25000/
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Nope, not like that at all. It's more like Walker is personally corrupt, not someone just extending the deal someone else benefitted from.

And I am concerned Obama hasn't purged the military of all these private contractors. But that's an off topic discussion.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
Nope, not like that at all. It's more like Walker is personally corrupt, not someone just extending the deal someone else benefitted from.

And I am concerned Obama hasn't purged the military of all these private contractors. But that's an off topic discussion.
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I agree that Obama's use of no-bid contracts to this discussion is not relevant.

But I also think the fact that a company that Walker hired had employees that drank vodka in weird ways in Afghanistan is irrelevant.

And whether Walker is corrupt or not is a bit off topic also. It is a way of deflecting the discussion away from the issue of whether there is a serious budget crisis in Wisconsin, whether sweet heart deals to unions are part of the problem and whether reducing the influence of unions on state government to obtain sweet heart deals is something that should be done.

I have already stipulated that I think both parties are corrupt. I must admit I was a little disappointed to see that Walker seems like he might be a little more straightforwardly corrupt than I would have liked but if we are looking for pristine politicians before we can agree with them on something we might be waiting a long time.
 
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davefoc said:
I agree that Obama's use of no-bid contracts to this discussion is not relevant.

But I also think the fact that a company that Walker hired had employees that drank vodka in weird ways in Afghanistan is irrelevant.
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You didn't read the whole story, I take it? Or do you not think established hazing of new hires coming to Afghanistan to join the workforce, which was publicly known, reflects on the management of that company? And if one were to hire that company should that poor management reflect on the decision? The fact the company installed a head guy with a criminal record to guard the courthouse certainly suggests the company was not a good choice. The unstopped hazing does as well.

davefoc said:
And whether Walker is corrupt or not is a bit off topic also. It is a way of deflecting the discussion away from the issue of whether there is a serious budget crisis in Wisconsin, whether sweet heart deals to unions are part of the problem and whether reducing the influence of unions on state government to obtain sweet heart deals is something that should be done.
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Walker denies the bill has anything to do with weakening the unions. Then in a phone call he is recorded saying weakening the unions is his goal.

This all goes to the conclusion, this is not about "sweet heart deals to unions are part of the problem and whether reducing the influence of unions on state government to obtain sweet heart deals is something that should be done." And I haven't seen any evidence in this thread that any sweetheart deals have even been made. Can you point me to some of that evidence?
 
davefoc said:
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I have already stipulated that I think both parties are corrupt. I must admit I was a little disappointed to see that Walker seems like he might be a little more straightforwardly corrupt than I would have liked but if we are looking for pristine politicians before we can agree with them on something we might be waiting a long time.
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This needs a separate post to answer because it is so important. Yes there is a level of corruption on both sides because of the influence money has in our system.

But where the Repubs have upped the stakes in the game is not about taking money for quid pro quo exchanges. The issue, that should concern everyone in this country regardless of the side one is on, is using one's position in office to gain an unfair advantage in the game.

This has been a serious pattern since Bush Jr took office and it makes Nixon's acts look like child's play. Bush tried to use the entire Dept of Justice to attack his political enemies. The reason the 8 attorneys were fired was because they refused to prosecute cases that were intended to defeat Democrats or get Repubs elected. These were Republican attorneys appointed by Bush who refused demands from the White House because those attorneys had ethical standards.

Democrats left Texas in 2003 in a similar attempt to block state legislation by blocking a quorum. The legislation they failed to block was gerrymandering redistricting by a Repub controlled state government. The redistricting eliminated ten Democratic Party legislators and put Repubs in their Congressional seats.
The 2003 redistricting targeted ten white, Democratic incumbents avoiding all seven minority Democratic incumbents.[13]
Max Sandlin (TX-1) was defeated in 2004 by Republican Louie Gohmert.
Jim Turner (TX-2) did not seek reelection in 2004. His seat was won by Republican Ted Poe.
Ralph Hall (TX-4) changed his party affiliation to Republican and was reelected in 2004.
Nick Lampson (TX-9) was moved to the 2nd District as a result of the redistricting and was defeated by Ted Poe. He relocated to the Sugar Land area in 2006 and ran for the seat being vacated by Tom DeLay (who had resigned due to pending conspiracy and money laundering charges). He won election to the heavily Republican 22nd district, but was defeated in 2008 by Pete Olson.
Lloyd Doggett (TX-10) was moved to the 25th district, a narrow strip of land running from Austin to the Mexican border derisively called the "fajita strip." Doggett won election in the new district, which later had to be redrawn for the 2006 elections after a Supreme Court ruling finding the district boundaries violated the Voting Rights Act.
Chet Edwards (TX-11) was moved into the 17th district, which had been made considerably more Republican in its new form. Despite this, Edwards was re-elected in 2004, 2006 and 2008. It wasn't until the 2010 elections that he was defeated by Bill Flores.
Charlie Stenholm (TX-17) was shifted into the heavily-Republican 19th district, and unsuccessfully ran against that district's Republican incumbent, Randy Neugebauer.
Martin Frost (TX-24) saw his district split off into several newly drawn Dallas-area districts intended to elect Republicans. He changed his residency to run in the 32nd district and lost to the district's Republican incumbent, Pete Sessions. Frost's old district, in its redrawn form, was won by Kenny Marchant, a Republican state legislator from Carrollton.
Chris Bell (TX-25) had his district renumbered as the 9th district, which was gerrymandered into a minority-majority district. Bell lost the Democratic primary to NAACP president Al Green, who easily won the general election.
Gene Green (TX-29) was reelected in 2004.
Of the Democrats affected by redistricting, Green is the only one who won reelection without being shifted to another district or changing parties. He was also the only white Democrat left among representatives from the Houston area.
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Yes, gerrymandered districts are the norm and they work to keep incumbents in office. But in Texas, Tom Delay (now in jail on other corruption charges), conspired openly with Karl Rove to put Repubs in the majority in the Congress permanently.

And the worst is yet to come. Karl Rove Lays Out Plan To Gerrymander America To Oblivion


Now you have Repubs all over the country using the budget crisis to conveniently scapegoat unions. Is it because unions have anything significant to do with causing the budget crises or because unions are getting in the way of addressing the budget crises?

There is no evidence this is the case. There is evidence that an effective propaganda campaign to paint unions as the enemy is the case. It's just like ACORN was falsely made an enemy of the people through an effective propaganda campaign, though this is on a much bigger scale.


So the issue isn't about the budgets or the unions. The issue is whether the propaganda campaign to falsely demonize unions because they provide significant funding to Democratic legislators' campaigns is going to succeed in deceiving the public.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
You didn't read the whole story, I take it? Or do you not think established hazing of new hires coming to Afghanistan to join the workforce, which was publicly known, reflects on the management of that company? And if one were to hire that company should that poor management reflect on the decision? The fact the company installed a head guy with a criminal record to guard the courthouse certainly suggests the company was not a good choice. The unstopped hazing does as well.

Walker denies the bill has anything to do with weakening the unions. Then in a phone call he is recorded saying weakening the unions is his goal.

This all goes to the conclusion, this is not about "sweet heart deals to unions are part of the problem and whether reducing the influence of unions on state government to obtain sweet heart deals is something that should be done." And I haven't seen any evidence in this thread that any sweetheart deals have even been made. Can you point me to some of that evidence?
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Did Walker have anything to do with what was going on in Afghanistan? And if he did I think it is still irrelevant to the topic but still interesting enough that it would be worth linking to the video. It does sound like Walker has some personal corruption issues and I wish he didn't, but Walker's purity is not really what the topic of this thread is about.

I agree that it is transparently obvious that Walker is trying to reduce the power of the union. I guess he saw some reason to lie about that. I try to be scrupulously honest myself, I don't see that necessarily as a good thing, and even if I did we live in a world where most people lie and politicians lie a lot so accepting the fact that politicians lie is something I have unhappily decided to accept. I don't expect to find a lot of scrupulously honest successful politicians.

Actually now that I've thought about your point about the relevance of Walker's corruption I agree with you that it is relevant.

And finally as to proof that there are sweetheart deals in place: I'm not familiar with what has gone on in Wisconsin but if it is remotely like anything in California the public employees in Wisconsin are awash with the profits that they have won by bribing the legislature.
 
WildCat said:
Odds are, you don't do the former because it's risky. The lower capital gains tax is designed to lessen the risk of investing, because we want people to invest.
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We tried it. It didn't work. The fat class just took the money to China.

A better plan would be to raise the cap gains tax a bit higher than income and give tax credits for physical plant investments HERE.
 
The selling of the state assets is an idiotic idea. It is a one-time gain, probably far less than what the assets are worth. (Who would buy them if the state could not turn a profit from them?)

Walker is jusat turning over the fruits of other people's labor to those who would steal yet more labor if there were no laws against it. They will then use the profits from operating those assets to buy a government that will allow them to steal labor unimpaired.
 
davefoc said:
Did Walker have anything to do with what was going on in Afghanistan? And if he did I think it is still irrelevant to the topic but still interesting enough that it would be worth linking to the video. It does sound like Walker has some personal corruption issues and I wish he didn't, but Walker's purity is not really what the topic of this thread is about.

I agree that it is transparently obvious that Walker is trying to reduce the power of the union. I guess he saw some reason to lie about that.
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"Some reason? :rolleyes: Can't quite figure out what that reason would be?

davefoc said:
I try to be scrupulously honest myself, I don't see that necessarily as a good thing, and even if I did we live in a world where most people lie and politicians lie a lot so accepting the fact that politicians lie is something I have unhappily decided to accept. I don't expect to find a lot of scrupulously honest successful politicians.

Actually now that I've thought about your point about the relevance of Walker's corruption I agree with you that it is relevant.

And finally as to proof that there are sweetheart deals in place: I'm not familiar with what has gone on in Wisconsin but if it is remotely like anything in California the public employees in Wisconsin are awash with the profits that they have won by bribing the legislature.
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Got any evidence of the unions in CA getting sweetheart deals? Or are you just unhappy with the state's budget crisis?

The teachers in WI were singled out as evidence the unions were getting a quid pro quo. Turned out their wages were right in the middle of average. I haven't even seen any posts showing who actually sits at the bargaining table with the unions in WI. No one has bothered to show there is a connection to any politician the union might donate to the campaign of.

While CA teachers have the highest average pay according to this source, if one controls for cost of living they score 44th out of 50 states. Which other unionized government workers were you thinking of? The nurses have bargaining power because there is a nursing shortage, not because the unions get favorable candidates elected. Surely your last governor was not on the side of the nurses' unions. There are many other variables operating regarding nurses.
 
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